Unsuspecting buyers with repro documents
 

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Subject VIN 194677S10652
You know it Paul but worse may be how bogus paper touted as genuine also raises other questions?:hmmm:
Looks like they sidestepped eBay on the deal too...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Chevro...-/323221301665

:beers:
~ Pete

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Shouldn’t you tell him if you know the docs are fake ?

Yes
 

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That's not cool, Paul!

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Too late to save the guy anyway so why burst his happy buyer bubble now?
He'll probably Google the Vin and land here at some point...whether he wants to believe the realities then or not.
Again, repo docs presented as genuine often raise other concerns that could be more serious than the hokey paperwork itself.
:hmmm:
~ Pete

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I think you are missing the last "2".

194677S106522

So Paul, someone on the Corvette forum asked why no charge for leather. Just curious. Is that one of the reasons (I am sure there are others) why you know it is fake?

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
When you own a car with reproduction docs for your enjoyment,the day you sell it,tear them in up front of the new buyer and throw them in your own garbage can.
That way you can now be disconnected with them as ever being presented as real in the future,and the new buyer has to order new repro docs and will help keep the repro doc guys in business.
Like Paul. :)

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WOW. I've seen this happen too many times. There is a guy on FB who sells fake documents identical to the ones posted by buyer of the '67 Corvette. It is fraud. Any time I see a red '67 BBC convertible with side pipes and claimed leather interior I cringed because I'm fearful the car may also have a reproduction trim tag. That is my emotion here - not fact.

The moderators of the Corvette Forum are puppets for a marketing company who own the site. They are not car guys, they are revenue seeking employees following bylaws made during round tables. Paul, don't take it personally - I know wonderful hobbyists who have been subjected to the unfair treatment on the CF. Two of which are prominent members here...

Dan

'It's a catastrophe.' French museum learns half its paintings are fake

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nati...210101264.html

Yes, they learned that half their paintings of Corvettes from the late 1800's were fake! Wonder how they figured it out? :-)

Paul, isn't this is a grey area for you? Don't you sell reproduction documents?

http://www.winvoices.com

Repro docs
 

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Thanks for watermarking them.

Are the documents you flagged here as reproduction your documents?

Really?
 

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Fakes
 

A museum in Japan had a curator who was found guilty of stealing rare oil paintings and replacing them with perfect forgeries that he painted himself. After he was sentenced , he agreed to identify the paintings that he forged. He found several that were perfect fakes, but not his work. Turns out that someone else was doing the same thing at the same time!

Amazing. Sorry to hijack the thread but you'd think that the forgers could make some serious bucks simply painting modern portraits of people in the original masters' style and selling them with full disclosure. I think it would be pretty amazing to have a "Day 2" Rembrandt of me and the family hanging on my wall.

I need to ask the community - how is no one else outraged by this situation?

Because the world of Corvettes is microscopic, turns out I had this car flagged in my database as having a reproduction trim tag after a friend asked for my opinion of the tag. I never saw the VIN though.

This situation frustrated me immensely so I stepped up and reached out to the buyer who posted on the Corvette Forum. I am NOT affiliated with him or this transaction in any way shape or form. I did this because I have unfortunately have the experience of dealing with a dishonest seller (a member here) which cost me $10k +. I gave him candid advice and he acted promptly. Kuddos to him! He sent pics to a very well known Corvette expert (a member here too) and the expert and I had communication and agreed on the details of the car – real VIN, fake trim tag, fake paperwork. The buyer had correspondence with the seller and the seller agreed to take the car back without financial implication. The return/refund is slated for later this week.

As a community of classic car enthusiasts, we should continuously be assertive and vigilant against reproduction documents, dishonesty, and fraud within our hobby.

Dan

I read through all that and don't see any mention of whether the car was represented as real or fake or whether the buyer knew one way or the other.

Way to step up, and help rectify the situation. :beers:

smart move by the seller take the car back. He would have big big legal problems

Wonder how far back in ownership the fake tag & docs go ? Sounded like the seller was just selling it for his father's estate ?

Good questions... Apparently the seller is not a car guy. Cars were owned by father. Sons want out. I have not spoken with sellers but they have more than one car. I find it tough to believe they did not know nor did they inquire. I don't want to infer further because they are taking the car back.

Dan

That has happened to me on the Corvette Forum several times. Once I pointed out an issue with a trim tag it was an St Louis built body 67 Corvette with A.O smith built trim tag obviously the tag was changed. They treated me like I was trying to cause trouble. Every time I look at a car with any kind of documentation I approach them with the assumption that they are fake until I can prove it other wise. To many cars out there have original paperwork or "original drive-train" these days. If I didn't know any better it would seem like everyone (back in the day) babied their cars and knew they would be worth a lot of money one day?

Matt.

Another 1967 Corvette on Ebay with purportedly original documents:
 

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----With that said, Paul, the actual sidepipes (not the covers) are very poor copies. Makes me wonder if the car came with sidepipes, although I see nothing other than the pipes to base that on........Bill S

Paul,

If you look through the pictures of the trans, a 1967 Corvette Muncie should have a passenger side Speedo tail housing...

So much for a correct restoration...

Hope this helps... Crash

1967 Corvettes used a 584 tail housing (speedo hole on passenger side) not the earlier 429 casting used on 63-64 Muncie tail housing with the (speedo hole driver side). Some claim that early 65 corvettes used the 429 casting tail housing before the 584 but I believe they have never found an actual example of this being true.

Engine Pad ID date
 

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For $100 the buyer could have sent the three documents off to have them validated. One hundred bucks vs spending whatever they did for a car. This is not uncommon, I saw it with a car that cost somebody over $200,000 last year. If somebody doesn't know how to tell fake documents from real ones, ask for help. If somebody doesn't know how to tell a fake stamp from a real one, ask for help. $100 may seem like lots of money, but there's lots involved in the validation process. It may seem like you're risking the deal of a lifetime holding off on buying a car for a day or two, but that's not always the case.

Good for you, Dan!

I've often thought there is a simple way to slow all of this down,

1 GM could require a licensing fee for use of their logos.

2 The producer of the document could include a statement that said reproduction not intended to be used as authentic documentation, or something similar.

Roy, I agree. Doesn't mean you get a home-grown-hero attempting to make these docs on Photoshop but it is a good start.

Paul posted above he puts a water mark on his documents. I'd love to see what this water mark is.

Paul - can you please post a photo for us to see?

Dan

In my world a watermark might be a nice touch, but it does nothing to protect the hobby, believe it or not the hobby is what this discussion is about. Without self preservation it goes away when fraud is discovered.

If an individual spends his major disposable cash on a fraudulent car, he can be so devastated he is out of the hobby forever.

Just as an example I know where there is a lawsuit waiting to happen over the blatant misrepresentation of a 1.3M dollar car. Collector car fraud is pursuable for 7 years from discovery. That means it is forever, if the current owner does not discover it and he transfers it after fifteen years. the new owner has seven years from when he discovers it. When these cases get tried they role downhill to someone, that someone is usually the party that forged the document or trim tag, the item that made it fraud to start with. My point is 1.3M is a big number maybe not to the current owner but to most and eventually someone will discover it. It could just as easily be 60,000, or 100,000 both are potentially big numbers to someone starting in the collector car hobby.

This is exactly right.. The reality of all this is the buyer has to do the work.. All we as hobbyist can do is support the ones that ask and continue to expose the ones that pop up. As long as greed and ignorance are in the equation there is nothing more ultimately we can do.

Watermark
 

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Here's something to think about:
 

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You only put the watermark on the back ? Couldn't I just copy the front and then there would be no watermark on the back ?