Telltale signs of an orig 69 Firebird 400

[JRSully]

Any quick teeltale signs of verifying a 69 Firebord 400 from 350/326 cars.? Anything on the trim tag etc.? Thx

[nuch_ss396]

I'm not a Firebird guy but I bet that drivers side tail pipe
hanger reinforcement plate is a dead giveaway.

Nuch

[SuperNovaSS]

Get the PHS report. Its cheap insurance.


Jason

[Rick]

Here are a few 400 only items on a Firebird:
Hood with scoops
Pontiac crest emblem in center of front bumper
Chrome trim around grills
400 emblem in lower right corner of trunk lid

but the best way as Jason said is the PHS documents.

[StealthBird]

Nothing on the trim tag will tell you it's a Firebird 400. All the "telltale signs" of the Firebird 400 option can be recreated now using repro parts, so PHS is the only way to know for sure. Just be forewarned, most of the 1969 Firebird 400's you see today are phony. They made around 11,500 Firebird 400's in 1969 (compared to 65,000 1969 GTO's), and you don't see too many 69 GTO's around! By comparison, they made around 11,000 Judges between 1969-1971 Judges, so a real 1969 Firebird 400 is tough to find.

The Firebird 400 option was an entire package, much the same way the 64-65 GTO option was over a Lemans, so PHS is the only way to know for sure.

Unique to the 400 models :

Chrome trim surrounding each grille.
Pontiac crest at the leading edge of the front bumper.
Dual scooped hood (also came on the 350 H.O.)
Filler panels between the radiator support and the front bumper to help cooling.
400 emblems on the hood scoops and right rear corner of trunk lid.
All Firebird 400 models, with auto trans, used the Turbo 400.
All Firebird 400 models used dual exhaust.
All Firebird 400 models had 4-barrel carbs (some GTO's were built with 2-barrels).
Lower baffle pan between core support and front valence (a/c cars had this too)
Chrome valve covers and air cleaner lid (Firebird 400's used the GTO engine)
14x7 wheels were standard.
HD alternator
HD starter
HD radiator

Just a footnote, ALL 69 Firebirds used a 160 mph speedo.

Hope that helps... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[442w30]

I don't think the scooped hood came on the 350HO.

[lwkitt427]

IF IT IS AREAL ON THEYU ARE GREAT LOOKING CARS GOOD LUCK WIHT CAR

[BUIZILLA]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the scooped hood came on the 350HO.

[/ QUOTE ] my wife's did, and her dad bought it brand new from Hallett Pontiac..

[DaJudge]

Stealth, everything you have posted is correct except you could order a Firebird 400 2bbl, just like the GTO. I owned one with a buildsheet a long time ago. I think they called it the economy package. I will see if I can find a copy of the buildsheet I had on the car.. It is the only one I ever saw.

Oh and the hood scoops are closed, unless it is a Ram Air III or IV bird.

[StealthBird]

DaJudge, please try to find that paperwork!

I'll never say never, but I have never heard of a Firebird 400 2-bbl. The 69 Firebird 350 was available with the 2-bbl, or an optional 4-bbl, but not the Firebird 400 model. There's no mention of a Firebird 400 2-bbl in any factory literature, on any of the order sheets, in the factory assembly manual, in the factory service manual, or on any of the factory engine charts.

They made a few thousand 67-69 GTO's with the 400 2-bbl option, and it was called the economy option, but they didn't make any Firebird 400 2-bbl's.

If you find any paperwork, please post!

[442w30]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the scooped hood came on the 350HO.

[/ QUOTE ] my wife's did, and her dad bought it brand new from Hallett Pontiac..

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, while not the end-all of information, this original brochure certainly doesn't attest to that.
http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/main.php?g2_itemId=70041&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

[ORIGLS6]

The '70 Chevelle brochure didn't list the 450 HP 454 availability either. Does that mean they don't exist?

[442w30]

That's why I said it wasn't the "end-all." http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

However, we know the LS6 wasn't available in the beginning of the year.

There is no documentation that states the Firebird HO came with scoops. If a car is correct, it would have the regular hood. A HO car with scoops is an anomaly or was dealer-installed.

[StealthBird]

Diego, the 350 H.O. did indeed come with the scooped hood. The 350 H.O. is rare, I've probably only seen 3 or 4 in my life. The 350 H.O. never had Ram Air as an option, but they came with the scooped hood. The factory brochure isn't a good reference in this case. They show the 350 H.O. with two hood tach nacelles, which never made production. Pontiac's original design was to have one nacelle as the hood tach, the other nacelle was hollow. There was a flexible hose (66-69 W-30 style) that connected the nacelle to the air cleaner. There's also a photo showing both nacelles with hoses attached. This obviously wasn't a good setup, as the hoses probably kinked when the hood was closed, but it made for a great photo with the hood up.

The 69 high-perf Pontiac brochure shows the 69 Judge with the prototype white Judge stripe, again, an item that never made production.

These brochures were (usually) printed and delivered to the dealers before the new models arrived, which meant the photography, printing, etc. occurred weeks, even months, before the cars were actually delivered to dealers. In this case, they had a few items in the brochures that never made production.

[StealthBird]

By the way, is there anything weird going on with posting photos? I'm using the at the beginning of the link, and at the end, and it ain't taking....

Tried it on the PY site, and it works fine. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[John Brown]

Use xxx instead.....

[442w30]

Mike, you sure about that? We're talking about 1969s and not the earlier ones, right?

If this is true, then I've learned something new about a Pontiac. I still remain skeptical, though. . . http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

ADDENDUM: Again, not the end-all, but here's a page from the original paperwork that doesn't specify the hood:
http://www.phs-online.com/1969firebird-orderform-3.html

[BUIZILLA]

the car had scoops that were NOT functional, but they were there, as was the 350 call out numbers..

period

[Xplantdad]

I think there's a 350 HO in Butternut yellow at Pavillions every once in a while??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[StealthBird]

[ QUOTE ]
Use xxx instead.....

[/ QUOTE ]

John, I've tried that too, still won't work. Not sure what's going on, because I've linked pics on this site before.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3303/3608919418_45d852d768.jpg?v=0

If anyone else can get this to display, please feel free!

Diego, I will look through my many Firebird books and display information. I'm at a loss here because I can't get any pics to display. Regardless, the original 1969 Pontiac brochure is WAY off, and has several items that never made production, like an incorrect Judge stripe, wrong Judge wing, and a prototype 69 Trans Am steering wheel which was never used, yet appeared in the dealer album insert as well as a magazine ad.

[442w30]

[ QUOTE ]
the car had scoops that were NOT functional, but they were there, as was the 350 call out numbers..

period

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have any evidence that supports the idea that Firebird HOs came standard with hood scoops?

If you did, it would settle it.

[StealthBird]

Well, I didn't think a little item like mentioning the 350 H.O. hood would generate such a debate, considering the original post was about Firebird 400's! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif But it's all good, because it's all information, and we're all information hounds. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Diego, I have found evidence of both the flat hood and scooped hoods on 69 350 H.O.'s, so I will retract my earlier comment.

So now the question is, which is correct? I seem to recall a discussion a while back on either the FGF or PY site about this, and it was suggested that when the run of 69 Firebirds was extended (after March 1969), the 350 H.O's may have received the 400 style hood, perhaps to move hood inventory with the 1970's on the way, I'm not sure. As we know, the 1969 Firebird 400's didn't sell very well in 1969 (a little over 11,000) compared to over 18,000 400's in both 1967 and 1968. Only 5,127 1969 Firebird 350 H.O.'s were built. They did not use the hood tach nacelles that appeared in the brochure. As a sidenote, it was a 350 H.O. Firebird that Royal Pontiac actually ran into the low 12's back in 1969, and ran well under the NHRA index.

[USER-3965175]

I AM NOT A FIREBIRD GUY BUT HAVE THE FOLLOWING GM INFO - HOPE THIS HELPS


HOOD INFO FROM FIREBIRD PARTS CATALOG "GM OF CANADA" DATED AUG 1973

9793429 HOOD 68-69 ALL W/ 250-350 ENGINES
9793430 HOOD 68-69 ALL W/ 400 -EXC CABLE CONTROL HOOD AIR INLET
9797763 HOOD 69 ALL CABLE CONTROL HOOD AIR INLET EXC TRANS AM
546014 HOOD 69/ ALL TRANS AM


http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/M21RSZ28/group800hood5.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/M21RSZ28/group800hood100hood.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/M21RSZ28/group800hood9.jpg

[68 Vert]

FWIW, here's a 350 HO for sale on PY... 69 HO (http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=581365)

Back to the OP, PHS is your best friend...

[BUIZILLA]

i'm not going to argue with you a$$hole, this car had it, you front $1,000 for questioning me , i'll bother the in laws find some 40 year old pic's, otherwise your NOT worth the time...

[442w30]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not going to argue with you a$$hole, this car had it, you front $1,000 for questioning me , i'll bother the in laws find some 40 year old pic's, otherwise your NOT worth the time...

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty strong words, tough guy. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

No one cares what your experience is - the topic at hand, aside of determining a Firebird 400, is whether Firebird HOs came from the factory with the scooped hood.

Can your ego handle that? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[supcarbob]

For what it's worth,no 1969 Firebird 350 H.O. sold at our dealership in '69(family owned 1959-2006) had a 'scooped' 400 hood.I remember most of the 350 H.O.S we had and they just didn't have them.

[camarojoe]

Buizilla and 442W30...knock off the personal attacks and name calling. There is no need for that crap here.

[442w30]

Please, Joe, I'm not a part of that.