Julian Date Codes vs Cowl Tag Build Dates

[enio45]

In order to determine the days of the week a 69 camaro would be built - we would go to the cowl tag to get the code - so for example 04C.

The April calendar week starts on a monday - so effectively that week could be considered 03E if we look at build dates - OR would it be considered 04A?

Im trying to determine the days of the week a car would be built if it was an 04C cowl date code.

Thoughts and help?

[PapaSmurf]

Eddie
I had the similar issue with my car. It has a 08E on the cowl tag but has a build date of September 3, 1969 according to the NCRS documents. Based on that information I assumed that the weeks would have to start on Friday, Saturday or Sunday to have a September 3 build date with a 08E cowl tag. Right or wrong I then assumed that Sunday was the first day of the week.
Using this layman logic I would assume that a 04C cowl date code would have been built during the week of April 20th to 26th.

[mockingbird812]

Eddie,

The 1st day of April '69 was a TUESDAY. A car built any day that week, except Monday, would be an 04A car as far as the trim tag is concerned. If that car was built on Monday of the same week, it would have been an 03E (Monday the 31st of March would have been the 5th week of March). Also, it is my understanding that the trim tag date is the date that the car <span style="font-style: italic">began</span> assembly. It may have been completed the same day, but it could have been completed at a later date.

IMO, an 04C car would have had a start build date of 14-18 April.

Ervin,

I belive this is why NCRS shows your car as being completed on 3 Sep vs &quot;08E&quot;. August had 5 different weeks that a car could have been built in. Yours was <span style="font-style: italic">started</span> some where from 25-29 August but, was not <span style="font-style: italic">completed</span> until 3 Sep.

[Verne_Frantz]

From my research, each week, A, B, C ect denotes the &quot;calendar&quot; week, not the first 6 days and the second 6 days, etc. IF you look at the calendar for the week in question and there is only one day (other than a Sunday) on the top line, then that &quot;A&quot; build week has only ONE day.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[L72copocamaro]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mockingbird812</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The 1st day of April '69 was a TUESDAY. A car built any day that week, except Monday, would be an 04A car as far as the trim tag is concerned. If that car was built on Monday of the same week, it would have been an 03E (Monday the 31st of March would have been the 5th week of March). Also, it is my understanding that the trim tag date is the date that the car <span style="font-style: italic">began</span> assembly. It may have been completed the same day, but it could have been completed at a later date.

IMO, an 04C car would have had a start build date of 14-18 April.

</div></div>

I have always been curious about this, and it's great to see some discussion of it. But if this logic is correct my 06B should be 06C. Per the NCRS report, my June 13th build date would have been in the 3rd week of the month.

[Kurt S]

Fisher didn't have hard, set rules on the weeks. It was for their purposes, Chevrolet never looked at it.
NOR was not consistent. You can try to force a calendar on it - square peg, round hole.

Go off the production date from the NCRS shipping data.

[enio45]

OK having said the above - when u have a an 04C car what dated YH wheels would be appropriate for the car. Related to YH, Late Jan wheels are known, Feb, only 2-21 or so wheels, no march wheels that i know of, and april - we have 4-18, 19, 20 I'm not sure of and 4-21 for sure

with the closeness of the date of the wheels and the 04C - getting the right wheel dates is key to the build date.

so what do we use for an 04C? The key to me is the actual build dates of the car.....

Ed my own car is a 04C build date. I have it written down it would have been the week of April 21-27. I know I did the research on this at least 10 years ago but do not remember how I arrived at that conclusion.

[ZLP955]

Eddie, with no YH production from late Feb to mid-April, and (as far as I'm aware) no Z28 production issues caused by a shortage of 15&quot; wheels, Kelsey-Hayes must have produced a large number of YH coded Rallys in the February run. Assuming that the April wheel production dates were scheduled based on monitoring demand for those wheels through March, it's unlikely that stocks would have been allowed to fall too low. This is purely my own opinion, but I would think that an 04C car would be more likely to have the late Feb wheels.
The question of build dates for 04C is key to that opinion though; my reading of the 1969 calendar is that 04C is the week commencing the 14th. My 04A LA car has a Fisher body scheduling number on the trim tag 'Bxxx' and from the NCRS shipping data, the official production date is April 1, 1969. That said, April 28th-30th would be the 5th week and I've not seen an 04E trim tag before (though that doesn't mean there aren't any), unless those dates were counted in 05A?

[enio45]

Tim, agree totally with your analysis on the YH dates. Likely dated wheel is Feb 24 YH's. Incidently, these feb wheels are the hardest every to find.

Ref the build date interpretation - also agree that is key to the analysis. The 04C car falls right in the middle of this understanding - putting 4-19, 4-20, or 4-21 wheels on is right at the edge of possibility.....no one can argue with the Feb wheel date, that fits with the dated parts prior to the build.

Interesting on your car - the 04A build and the ncrs production date seems to imply the 04A date on the trim tag is defined as the end of the week, not the beginning of the week.

One more point to ponder - the end of march build - march 31st is on monday - so is the cowl tag build date 03E or 04A?

[enio45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ed my own car is a 04C build date. I have it written down it would have been the week of April 21-27. I know I did the research on this at least 10 years ago but do not remember how I arrived at that conclusion. </div></div>

Frank - with your info this seems to define the third full week of April defines 04C and the date range u defined. If that is the case - then there must be a 03E as i elaborated on in the above post.

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: enio45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In order to determine the days of the week a 69 camaro would be built - we would go to the cowl tag to get the code - so for example 04C.

The April calendar week starts on a monday - so effectively that week could be considered 03E if we look at build dates - OR would it be considered 04A?

Im trying to determine the days of the week a car would be built if it was an 04C cowl date code.

Thoughts and help?

</div></div>

I don't think we can shoot that straight.

The Fisher codes are specific to body build only, and even then there is a margin of error, due to work stoppages, breakage, or general assembly down time.

Also - keep in mind it takes a few shifts for the body to get started and get through the body shop, and then through paint. Once it drops down into general assembly it can be completed within a few hours (likely that same shift). It can then still spend a few hours to a few days running around in the repair area before actually leaving the facility.

Really no way to know for sure unless you happen to be standing there as it goes by, or if you drive it off the end of the line yourself.

K

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Go off the production date from the NCRS shipping data.
</div></div>

Unless the car sat in AGR or in the repair lot for some period of time after primary assembly was finished.

[enio45]

might not have the ncrs info available......but that would be a good ref point.

so , on the ncrs doc, the production date is the date which means ...........??? start, end or ship?

[70 copo]

Eddie,

This may help. I posted this over at the CRG previously:

For Norwood the production date was forecast in the production planning review meeting that occurred 72 hours prior to production. For those of you with &quot;Echoes&quot; on the book shelf have a look at pages 90-93.

Fortunately the production scheduling superintendent is still with us and I asked him about the vehicle shipper vs the production date.

He stated without hesitation that &quot;the holding lot could hold better than 4000 cars at any one time and it typically took two days &quot;or more&quot; to get the car shipped&quot;. &quot;Even more days were required if the car was held up at repair either outside in the holding lots, or inside at AGR&quot;.

&quot;For vehicle shipping purposes the shipper must be very accurate as to the ship date when the shipper takes possession of the product. This is the &quot;production date&quot; as referred to on the shipper&quot;.

In a good faith effort to understand the relationship between the dates on the Body Plate (called the trim tag by the hobby) researchers and have tended to rely on the shipper info from NCIB and now the NCRS to establish the build date of the car and in so doing discount the date applied to the body plate.

OK: First off the shipper date is the date when the car was considered &quot;released to the shipper&quot; -- and all production/repair was technically complete. In the period 1967-1970 the date of production on the body plate in relationship with the ship date could be influenced by any one of the following:

A production hold at the Fisher body bank
A production hold off line at Fisher in body shop, Paint, hard or soft trim.
A production hold at the Chevrolet body bank.
Chevrolet repairs after production at AGR
Chevrolet repairs after production in the post production holding lots

[Kurt S]

It's the date GM considered it an assembled, saleable vehicle and was valued as such on the books.
What's the VIN of the car we're talking about?

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Eddie,

This may help. I posted this over at the CRG previously:

For Norwood the production date was forecast in the production planning review meeting that occurred 72 hours prior to production. For those of you with &quot;Echoes&quot; on the book shelf have a look at pages 90-93.

Fortunately the production scheduling superintendent is still with us and I asked him about the vehicle shipper vs the production date.

He stated without hesitation that &quot;the holding lot could hold better than 4000 cars at any one time and it typically took two days &quot;or more&quot; to get the car shipped&quot;. &quot;Even more days were required if the car was held up at repair either outside in the holding lots, or inside at AGR&quot;.

&quot;For vehicle shipping purposes the shipper must be very accurate as to the ship date when the shipper takes possession of the product. This is the &quot;production date&quot; as referred to on the shipper&quot;.

In a good faith effort to understand the relationship between the dates on the Body Plate (called the trim tag by the hobby) researchers and have tended to rely on the shipper info from NCIB and now the NCRS to establish the build date of the car and in so doing discount the date applied to the body plate.

OK: First off the shipper date is the date when the car was considered &quot;released to the shipper&quot; -- and all production/repair was technically complete. In the period 1967-1970 the date of production on the body plate in relationship with the ship date could be influenced by any one of the following:

A production hold at the Fisher body bank
A production hold off line at Fisher in body shop, Paint, hard or soft trim.
A production hold at the Chevrolet body bank.
Chevrolet repairs after production at AGR
Chevrolet repairs after production in the post production holding lots </div></div>

Well said.

This is what the back yard in Flint looked like.

This photo should also help explain (a) why we could physically lose vehicles in the yard, and (b) why we could run some vehicles out of gas shuttling them between the various repair areas.

K

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Car%20Haulers/FlintAssemblybackyard.jpg

PS: I drove by there last night. It still looks like that. Edit: Except the trucks are newer.

[Hotrodpaul]

The engine in my X-77 Survivor 04C Z-28 has an assembly date of V0409DZ, so figuring about a week to get to Norwood Ohio and ready for installation would put it around 4-16 to 4-22? My old L-78 04C Camaro SS from the POP had engine assy date T0417JH and it was 400 cars earlier build than my Z-28. Go figure...

Paul

[enio45]

Members, thanks for the discussion and insight to the dates. Good feedback - however, can anyone determine or knows the answer to the following issue:

As stated above - when the cowl tag build date is selected for production, so like the end of march is 03E (which is a monday) then is the rest of that week that falls into April (Tues - Friday) is the car considered an 03E car or 04A? Im assuming they are using the cowl tag date as the beginning of the week, not the end of the week?

Thanks again - after this ill stop and don't want to beat a dead horse!!

I can see in the pic above, how a car could get lost for weeks out there in the pasture!!

[mockingbird812]

My understanding Eddie is that the trim tag date reflects the date that the assembly of the car begins. If your car's assembly is started on Monday, 31 March, it will have an &quot;03E&quot; trim tag regardless of what day it is completed. The NCRS date appears to be the date the car is shipped.

[70 copo]

+1 for Sam's comment.

[Kurt S]

As an aside: They may or may not have indexed to 04A for the rest of the week. I've seen some weeks that were 1 to 1.5 days long - and in the middle of the month. NOR Fisher used this date as they chose; it definitely was only loosely based on a calendar.
Some plants may have been more regimented in their use of the date, but not at NOR.

[SS69chevelle]

Guys, FWIW, I track 69 Chevelle data and have this same issue and have tried many times to tie the build weeks to a calendar with no success. As far as the build month and weeks I have several that run beyond the monthly reported VINs for an assembly plant, example would be the Baltimore assembly plant in June 1969, many of the early June VINs have 05D build month and week. This did not occur at all the assembly plants and not for all the months but there are several where it runs over.
For my 1969 chevelle, the NCRS production date is the same as the transfer date that is found on the Manufacturers Certificate of Origin.

[Verne_Frantz]

I'm not sure why this topic seems to cause so much confusion. For the years I have documented (58-64) I have MANY cars on record with a trim tag build date at the end of one month and a VIN within the next month, or a trim tag build date in one week and the VIN calculated within the next week (or two). As Phil and others have stated, delays due to problems with the body or line balance considerations or parts supplier delays did result in such spacing between the start/finish of the body and the final assembly.
Now if it was the other way around...........Houston, we have a problem!

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif
PS: I hope I haven't offended anyone since my research isn't from 1969.

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Verne_Frantz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not sure why this topic seems to cause so much confusion. For the years I have documented (58-64) I have MANY cars on record with a trim tag build date at the end of one month and a VIN within the next month, or a trim tag build date in one week and the VIN calculated within the next week (or two). As Phil and others have stated, delays due to problems with the body or line balance considerations or parts supplier delays did result in such spacing between the start/finish of the body and the final assembly.
Now if it was the other way around...........Houston, we have a problem!

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif
PS: I hope I haven't offended anyone since my research isn't from 1969. </div></div>

x2. I think the confusion comes because people are trying to nail it to a specific day and it is not that exact. There's a lot of ebb and flow in the process.

Sidebar: I've shepherded thousands of engineering vehicles through the build process, and a couple of my own vehicles.

I watched my '87 pickup get built in Flint. Caught up with it at 4:30 pm on Monday September 29 1986 as it was coming down out of paint into trim. Followed the cab/box through trim until it went upstairs to the body accumulator; ran downstairs to follow the motor and chassis build through body drop. After body drop I followed it down the final line. I &quot;allowed&quot; one of the end of line drivers to roll test it and then I drove it from the short repair line over to the shipping building myself.

I told the shipping area supervisor &quot;Lloyd - that's my truck&quot; and left the plant at 1:30 am Tuesday morning. It was at Graff Chevrolet in Davison by 5pm that same Tuesday (9 miles away. $525 destination charge, btw).

I tell this story not only to highlight the build timing (at 60 jobs/hour, or one complete vehicle per minute) but also to share this: a few years ago I ordered the build information/invoice from the GM Heritage Center archive. I was somewhat surprised to find they had the &quot;shipping date&quot; wrong - it showed Monday the 29th even though I know it did not leave the property until Tuesday the 30th. The &quot;pay point&quot; was reported near the end of the final line, not by when it cleared the shipping building, so I suspect this is why the document did not match how I would have phrased it in layman's terms.

K


Also note that they spelled my name wrong (!):

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/lmseymore/Red%20Truck/Invoice-1.jpg

[enio45]

I do think we are trying to understand the process of the dates and how they apply to the dates on the cars.

For the YH wheel application, they only made them in sporadic batches - so trying to determine the right date for the car build was the intent here. Unfortunately the 04C car falls into one of those gray areas and like everyone has stated above, there is no exact process and definitive definition on the dates they apply to the car - due to many variables as also stated above.

For the 04C car, best bet is to see if there are any other 04C Z28's that have their original wheels and see what they have - would be the best approach or be safe and eliminate any controversy with using the Feb wheel dates.

Appreciate everyone's input and constructive thoughts

Mike Mike Mike - what day is it ?? HUMP DAY!!

[70 copo]

Eddie,

For Norwood, likely the best we can do today is to perhaps triangulate the Fisher build date, the shipper date and to a lesser extent the VIN. I think in most cases you can reliably determine the week of production.

Given the normal production duration from the drop of the floor pan to road and roll you are already 2 business days into production on a single unit. Allowing for any repairs-potential re inspection(s) and vehicle transfer over to the &quot;OK lot&quot;, all is left is transition to the method of shipment. Either loading to rail (at rail load out) or direct to trucks via Complete Auto Transport both of these were at plant at the rear of the plant near the Foral Ave gate.