Little engines that can

[VintageMusclecar]

Thought some here might find this interesting.

The oft-maligned 283 SB Chebbie gettin' it done. (http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/1209em-nhra-legal-stock-eliminator-283-chevy/) <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[WILMASBOYL78]

Great article...I always love reading about the 283...for many of us this was our first V8! Those little motors had a special sound that I will always remember. A lot of my buddies had a car with a 283 back in the day...my favorite was a 1964 El Camino with a 283/2bbl, dual exhaust, 3 spd on the floor...I learned how to drive a std. shift with that car. It was painted white with chrome slots and black vinyl cover on the bed...that was a long time ago <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif

wilma

[VintageMusclecar]

Got a real soft spot in my heart for those little 283's. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

If I may share an amusing personal anecdote;

The very first engine I rebuilt was a 283. My grandmother had a rotted `58 Chevy Brookwood wagon that she gave me when I was 13 years old. I didn't even own any 1/2&quot; drive tools at the time, just a 3/8&quot; socket set and basic wrenches. I managed to get the top half off of the engine (after struggling for several days to get the heads off, only to have the local machine shop inform me of the 8 bolts hiding under the exhaust manifolds <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif ) and the camshaft out by myself, but I was stymied on how I was going to get the engine out of the car--I didn't have access to an engine hoist.

So, I did what any other 13 year-old neophyte mechanic would do...(or not)..I hack-sawed the core support out of the car, disconnected everything from the trans (the old cast iron Powerglide mind you), hooked a chain to the deck surface via the head bolts, slid a piece of plywood between the balancer and the bottom of the core support, and my father drug it out pulling it with our `65 Cutlass.

Redneck?...you bet'cha. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

If &quot;necessity is the mother of invention&quot;, then redneck ingenuity must be the father. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif

Anyhow, I managed to drag the lump home, got it dis-assembled and off to the local machine shop. There weren't funds to do a full-fledged rebuild, so we just hot tanked the block, honed it and stabbed in new cam bearings. Sloooowly, we pieced together a rebuild kit; first rings &amp; bearings, a new rope seal, a timing set and oil pump. I re-used the original cam &amp; lifters (not knowing the lifters were supposed to be kept in order), and not knowing any better, installed a pair of rebuilt 350 large chamber heads. The compression ratio must've been pitiful. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/frown.gif

It took me over 2 years to get that engine built, and by the time I turned 16 I had it finished. That's when I bought my first car, the POS `67 SS Chevelle featured on my website. I couldn't bring myself to drop the 283 into the car--I desperately wanted a big block, so I traded the rebuilt 283 to a neighbor who had a `71-`72 GMC Sprint that he'd just pulled a good 402 out of. He had the 283 in and running in no time, and informed me that it ran great and got more than double the gas mileage of the 402 (which is why the 402 came out).

He drove it for at least a couple more years before he moved away.

I never did get that 402 into my Chevelle.

[68l30]

That 283 is getting it done...11.571...WOW !


BIG

[VintageMusclecar]

Yep...and &quot;only&quot; 373 HP! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

[John Brown]

Cast crank at 8000 rpm? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif How can that be.

Those &quot;extra&quot; holes in the bottom of the bores are also quite the trick.

[VintageMusclecar]

Yep, those Stocker dudes leave no <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">pebble</span></span> unturned in their quest for every last ounce of power &amp; performance they can find.

Cast cranks are lighter than forged, and with proper prep will live at those power levels just fine.

Those crankcase balance passages are very &quot;LS&quot; in their origins. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

As I always say...&quot;find 10 places to find 2 HP and what have you found?&quot;

[markinnaples]

That's a great 283 story.

[Verne_Frantz]

Call me dumb, but I don't know how 373hp can run mid 11s in a '66 Chevelle? No matter what's done to the engine, 373hp is still 373hp.
Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

[WILMASBOYL78]

Verne is right....I think somebody was &quot;under reporting&quot; the power of this mouse. Perhaps Eric can shed some light since he added the little winky guy <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif to his post next to the hp figure?

wilma

[John Brown]

I'll bet about half of the reason that Chevelle runs as well as it does is that it's not quite the porker most people would expect it to be. Less weight means you go fast on tiny horsepower, but 373 horses out of a 230 horse rated 283 is nothing to sneeze at. Kudo's to the owners and engine builders on the super low et.

[VintageMusclecar]

The power figures are legit. The wink was a nod to the efficiency of the package, that's all. When the vehicle itself is scienced out to the &quot;nth&quot; it doesn't take that much power to run quickly.

I have a friend with a Fox body Mustang that used to be a magazine project car. At the starting line it weighs right around 3000 lbs. The engine is a ridiculously mild carbureted 302, and at the time it was backed up with a prepped OEM 5 speed and a Ford Motorsports Dana rear with a 4.5X gear. On 26X9 tires it ran 11.80's at 110-ish. On a chassis dyno it barely cracked 300 HP. (It now runs a prepped C4 and is a tad slower due to other issues)

Remember, stock eliminator cars literally leave nothing to chance, every inch of the car is scienced out to provide the most efficient use of power possible. If you took that engine &amp; trans out and put it into a similar weight streeter it would probably be at least 2 seconds slower just because the car doesn't work as well.

FWIW, another well-known racer I know once ran a 283 in Super Stock trim--i.e. fully ported/welded heads, roller cam, any intake (but OEM carb), every trick in the book internally, etc. and it made ~480.

[earntaz]

Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what ya' see ...

[69 Post Sedan]

To be that quick with 373hp, the Chevelle must be on the light side (per NHRA) and they REALLY have the car's chassis combination set up perfect. Great article!

Kurt <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

On a side note, Jerry Frailey has a friend running a 80's Malibu with a 305 in Stock Eliminator and I believe he's in the low 11's......Crazy. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/crazy.gif

[EZ Nova]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VintageMusclecar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The power figures are legit. The wink was a nod to the efficiency of the package, that's all. When the vehicle itself is scienced out to the &quot;nth&quot; it doesn't take that much power to run quickly.

I have a friend with a Fox body Mustang that used to be a magazine project car. At the starting line it weighs right around 3000 lbs. The engine is a ridiculously mild carbureted 302, and at the time it was backed up with a prepped OEM 5 speed and a Ford Motorsports Dana rear with a 4.5X gear. On 26X9 tires it ran 11.80's at 110-ish. On a chassis dyno it barely cracked 300 HP. (It now runs a prepped C4 and is a tad slower due to other issues)

Remember, stock eliminator cars literally leave nothing to chance, every inch of the car is scienced out to provide the most efficient use of power possible. If you took that engine &amp; trans out and put it into a similar weight streeter it would probably be at least 2 seconds slower just because the car doesn't work as well.

FWIW, another well-known racer I know once ran a 283 in Super Stock trim--i.e. fully ported/welded heads, roller cam, any intake (but OEM carb), every trick in the book internally, etc. and it made ~480. </div></div>

Still, there's something just a little fish going on? Even by you own example, the light weight Fox/302 combo was right there. I could see low 12's, but mid 11's!!! Seems be a stretch with what is posted.

I know how we set up our cars, and what we do to get there with our power. ET calculators are way outta wack on ours too. I have friends and have helped on TAFC, TFD, IHRA/NHRA P/S, as well as some other high-end fact class cars. My buddies SN95 Mustang IS the worlds fastest, N/A SB car in the world @ 2750lbs (with a 7.68). I have a NHRA 500 incher in my car and my crew chiefs car has an Aussie 400 P/S in it as well. He also has a current 2015 IHRA P/S car too.

We go through things like Cryo'ing, coating, ceramic bearings, Ti wheel studs and you name it. Usually the best of the best in what we do. We also look for every 1/100th and add them up. Ever been crossing the line with engine singing at 9500+ and ZERO oil pressure??? That's what it's like with 0W2 oil, and that we only push to 2 runs MAX!

So with that background of looking for each and ever hundredth we can find, I still find this one a bit difficult to see?????

Sorry that just me.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

&quot;...engine singing at 9500+ and ZERO oil pressure...&quot;

I got stuck on that phrase! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/eek.gif

[John Brown]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EZ Nova</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So with that background of looking for each and ever hundredth we can find, I still find this one a bit difficult to see?????

Sorry that just me. </div></div>

Just do a little Google search on Wade Owens Chevelle NHRA. You will find it weighs 3200 pounds and is nicknamed &quot;The Money Pit&quot;. For those of you that haven't run a high dollar Powerglide on a four link car like a Chevelle, all I can say is ~ you'll never believe how hard that combo can leave.

[VintageMusclecar]

OK. I'll try to put this in perspective w/o typing a novel.

My friend's Mustang is nowhere NEAR maxed-out, it's just well-sorted out for the parts on the car now. It does (/did) NOT have a super-tricked out trans, just rebuilt with a few parts added for reliability (but he still managed to break it). It did NOT have a trick clutch in it, just a Ford Motorsports &quot;street/strip&quot; unit. It does NOT have trick shocks &amp; struts on it, just mid-level components. The engine is an 80K+ mile UNTOUCHED OEM roller 5.0 short block--stock rings, bearings, never been apart. It had a B303 cam in it with OEM lifters, a pair of mildly re-worked 351W heads, a Weiand dual plane and a 750 Holley. Headers were street 1 5/8&quot; units with 2 1/2&quot; pipes and a pair of Flowmasters. All fluids are ran full at all times and all are garden variety--no trick racing oils or anything like that.

It runs like it does because he's made hundreds of passes and refined everything as far as he could. He nailed down tire pressures, launch RPM, shift points, timing, jetting, etc. Speaking of shift points, he only shifts this thing at just over 6K.

Using Stan Weiss' calculator (http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calchpe.htm) calculator and plugging in 3000 lbs and an 11.8 ET shows 360.88 HP required, pretty much spot-on for this car taking into account the typical 20% drivetrain loss from flywheel to wheel HP with a manual transmission.

Were you to leave his engine untouched and add a full race trans &amp; clutch, high end shocks &amp; struts, radial tires, zero friction suspension components, etc. the car would be at least .3-.5 quicker than it was. There's mid 11's with 300 RWHP at ~3000 lbs. The calculator says it would take 390 HP to do that, but we already know it's within reach w/o touching the engine.

Consider the Chevelle. As stated in the article, it runs right at the national record so we know it's scienced out. Minimum weight for L Stock Automatic is 3072 + 170 lbs for the driver, which is 3242 lbs. Again, I'd bet my bottom dollar that car has every trick in the book in it--lightweight low friction trans, high-$$ converter, suspension has been perfected, etc. With modifications like these, it's not uncommon at all for a Stock or Super Stock car to ET well below what HP/ET calculators predict.

Again using Stan Weiss' calculator (http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calchpe.htm) and plugging in 3242 lbs and 11.6 ET shows a requirement of 410 HP. Since the car's scienced out, we already know it really doesn't take that much power to run that number.

Set on &quot;kill&quot; (water-thin oil, probably only 2-3 quarts in the pan, engine ice cold, etc.) I'm sure the 283 probably doesn't miss 400 HP by much, which again falls right in line with the numbers.

JMO of course. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

*edit* John typed his response while I was still working on mine. As usual, he's spot-on.

[VintageMusclecar]

From Wade himself (http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&amp;t=32655)

[VintageMusclecar]

One more from Wade on the ST forum. Note this was posted 4 years ago:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No tricks really. Lots of testing on cams, converters and carburetors. Our spec Ross pistons, Manley rods from the NHRA approved list and Total Seal Gapless rings and pins must weigh at least 1195 grams. Our best cams are in the 262/266 @ .050 range. We have 5 or 6 cast iron intakes (we can legally run a 327/300 manifold) and randomly test at the track for which is quickest. The light oil doesnt work for us, we use 5/20 Royal Purple, 3-5 qts depending on what we're doing. Stock oil pans and stock appearing cranks also hurt us. The any valve job rule did pick our program up, though. 2.08 first gear and a 5.86 in the rear creates a 7600 finish line rpm......

That 11.46 run was 1.47 60', 7.19 660', 11.46 @ 112.99 in 2700' of air. We done this at an Indy div last year.</div></div>

[Salvatore]

MacNeish runs 10.40's with his D/S 302 camaro. Not sure what NHRA rates them now but a 302/290 hp motor I think is NHRA rated at 310 or so? Don't hold me to that but close I think. That NHRA rating kinda hurts them.
Everything has to work perfect and there are many tricks to the trade that they ALL do. Gearing is a big part along with the clutch and even the correct headers.

When the 1985 versions of the 305 camaros run in the 10's you know the HP rating from GM is way off. NHRA adds HP to those figures.

[67 Nova Boy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw

[Verne_Frantz]

The headers are one point I didn't consider. Maybe the ones used in the car weren't the ones used on the dyno??

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

[Salvatore]

I am sure they were not Verne. I think they are using step headers

[68l30]

Love the little small blocks, I use to watch a 289 65 Stang run at Norwalk years ago...... Unfrickinbelieveable! Serious RPM, 4sp and a untubbed rear. HP? Never knew never cared. It was a treat to see this car launch at what seemed like 6K + and head wheels up for a low 11.0 sec run. I hear it's still running, quicker but nowhere near as &quot;stock appearing&quot; as it was. A lot of little small blocks kicked some serious butt before the &quot;good blocks&quot; came out.

BIG

[markjohnson]

I bet Wade's Chevelle has a torque convertor about the size of a Burger King Whopper . . . .

[Salvatore]

Junior Whopper!

[John Brown]

I always fantasized about using a small centrifugal clutch in front of an automatic transmission instead of using a converter. Maybe have it work sorta like a snowmobile. Sometimes thinking like that, with enough time and money for testing and experimenting, might produce a winning race car. But then again, it could just be another Money Pit. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

[Day2_69Z]

We ran a multiple disc clutch Powerglide with air shift in the Pro Nitrous Camaro , ran 1.10 60 foot times ..
Upgraded to 350 Turbo style with clutched torque converter &amp; air..
($30k + service/maintenance)...runs .960 60 ft times....nearly the best in class. And 3.70 et's @ 200 with soft tune ups. Brother Joe will Not tune it for KILL Mode to run 3.60's.....He's Never Lost a Motor ($150k + service/maintenance) in 4+ years of PDRA /ADRL Pro Nitrous Racing.

[Day2_69Z]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw

</div></div>
In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 &amp; 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated &amp; raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work.

[wrench]

If someone wants to build a 302 I have a '68 3923279 crank with the rod journals turned down .100 for a small journal rod.

[Salvatore]

a &quot;go fast&quot; crank.

[wrench]

I have been told it was worth about 8 to 10 H.P. to do that to the crank.

[KenMaisano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw

</div></div>
In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 &amp; 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated &amp; raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work.</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98

Yep they look like W2 mopar heads. Neat stuff!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw

</div></div>
In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 &amp; 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated &amp; raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work.</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw

</div></div>
In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 &amp; 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated &amp; raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work.</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw

</div></div>
In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 &amp; 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated &amp; raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work.</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw

</div></div>
In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 &amp; 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated &amp; raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work.</div></div>

[Salvatore]

That is why the 305's run so good.

[EZ Nova]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw

</div></div>
In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 &amp; 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated &amp; raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work. </div></div>

This I didn't know?? Strange how in STOCK, things are really regulated like only offset grinding crank .015&quot;, yet you can cut apart a set of heads, move everything and re-weld them back, and tech does/says nothing? aybe that's true, never really been into STOCK.

The multi-clutch PG sounds good for the hi-Hp big inch guys, but these smaller motor guys that I know, run 3 speeds, mostly PRO-FLITES. Buddies small tire (29.5 X 10.5 tire), 2780 lbs 440&quot; SB N/A for has also been 1.1025 60's. Again 3 speed PF trans. PG was just off a bit and car would 60 with the 2 speeds and low Hp 440 SB.

Now I'm NOT saying you CAN'T get a OEM style lil SB to run mid 11's, just there's something that's not being told??? I can't figure, why this STOCK ELIMINATOR, either K/SA, L/SA or M/SA car, that can legally run mid 11's, why doesn't it hold a record in the class??? Record for K is 11.76, L is 11.82 and m is ONLY 12.35 MINIMUM? MacNeish is listed for D/S though.

Trust me, I'm all about going faster then you should with what you have, these are some good examples too.

NO DOUBT either way, the car works and the guy is successful in my book..

[John Brown]

Current NHRA racing is run on a qualifying set-up in an eliminator bracket. Whoever runs the farthest under the unrealistic standard that is set for each class is the number one qualifier. If by chance, by accident or on purpose, a car and driver was to set a record at the level that they can really run, they would have to qualify against that new record. It's too easy to just leave the records alone and qualify 1 or 1.5 or 2 seconds under the minimum. You can then pick your own dial in and use that number for the rest of the event. Can you say &quot; big bracket race?&quot;.

[Salvatore]

Thats right John!

[Thomas]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw

</div></div>
In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 &amp; 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated &amp; raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work. </div></div>

Um, no.
In Stock Class, heads are stock, with stock valve sizes in their stock locations and unported.
You can have a 3 angle valve job using any angles.

[Day2_69Z]

Buy a class engine that runs on or under the record and pull it apart......have untouched &quot;stock&quot; components on hand for comparison. That's if you can find someone to sell you (an outsider) an engine.

Protest and tear down rules still apply.........And you will NEVER SEE a fellow Class Racer called to Tech for A teardown protest.........NHRA will do a C.I. &amp; a Compression ratio check on occasions.
They are at &quot;Risk&quot; themselves......
.....for a &quot;counter protest&quot;

Its Racing......if you ain't cheat'n, you ain't race'n.....

[Day2_69Z]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John Brown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Current NHRA racing is run on a qualifying set-up in an eliminator bracket. Whoever runs the farthest under the unrealistic standard that is set for each class is the number one qualifier. If by chance, by accident or on purpose, a car and driver was to set a record at the level that they can really run, they would have to qualify against that new record. It's too easy to just leave the records alone and qualify 1 or 1.5 or 2 seconds under the minimum. You can then pick your own dial in and use that number for the rest of the event. Can you say &quot; big bracket race?&quot;.</div></div>

Nobody in their right mind with the way the indexes are Would Set a New Record... that messes up the whole wagon train.

[markjohnson]

NHRA Stock Eliminator will make a person crazy wondering how they are so fast compared to their streetable brethren! They may look like a slightly modified musclecar with contingency decals on them but they are light years apart. It's like comparing a donkey to American Pharaoh. At first glance they look similar but . . . .

[Day2_69Z]

That's the Best most Educated Statement I've Heard in Years if not Decades about 'Stock Class Race Cars&quot; !!!

Night and Day doesn't even compare to that

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif

[Thomas]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buy a class engine that runs on or under the record and pull it apart......have untouched &quot;stock&quot; components on hand for comparison. That's if you can find someone to sell you (an outsider) an engine.

Protest and tear down rules still apply.........And you will NEVER SEE a fellow Class Racer called to Tech for A teardown protest.........NHRA will do a C.I. &amp; a Compression ratio check on occasions.
They are at &quot;Risk&quot; themselves......
.....for a &quot;counter protest&quot;

Its Racing......if you ain't cheat'n, you ain't race'n.....
</div></div>

I'm not stating that everyone is playing by the rules.
Just because it is not &quot;legal&quot; doesn't mean that someone is not doing it.
If your engine is torn down, by the NHRA, they check certain things.
I believe that intake runner and head port volume are two of the items.
If you can modify those, without them showing any signs of tampering and they still meet stop specs, then you are good to go.

Do not kid yourself, any engine, which will run under the index, is expensive and every engine builder has his own little bag of tricks.
There is a lot more too it than just having the the best engine.
There is also a lot of tuning involved.

[WILMASBOYL78]

Looks can be deceiving when it comes to &quot;stock&quot; engines....Back in the old days at Dover Drag Strip we called them &quot;mountain motors&quot;...there was always a little more to them than met the eye <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif

wilma

[Salvatore]

Mountain Motors was/is a term used for IHRA Pro Stock racing. 850 cubic inches of whatever.
Usually the Fords got the most cubes out of their stuff.

The Mountain Motor Nationals at MIR. Fun to watch. Most could not qualify at an NHRA Pro Stock event.

Stock eliminator as of I guess last year can run roller rockers.
Acid porting the heads have been around a long time to.
Next Stocker you look at, see how much flange there is on the head where the headers are bolted to.
Camshafts, same stock factory lift but the duration could go on for minutes.

I remember John Guilus did a 327/340 motor for Abbazia Bros. in their 62 E/S vette a few years back. Saw the car run 10.40's in good weateher allday long. NHRA factored him to death after that. AFB carb too.

[Thomas]

There are so many more aspects to make a Stock Eliminator go fast than just the engine.
Right now, I am learning how to tune a Q-jet.
First you buy a carb built by one of the handful of gurus.
Then, you spend countless passes swapping primary jets and metering rods, secondary metering rods, secondary rod hangers, adjusting secondary air valve opening, etc...

Besides the engine, there is the transmission with the right gears and the correct converter for &quot;your&quot; engine.

You have to figure out the right gear ratio for the differential.

Do you run short or tall slicks?

Did you pick the perfect shocks for your combination?

The list goes on and on...

Most of the guys who run fast have spent countless hours tuning and testing their car.

How many of you guys know how to read a spark plug for the correct fuel mixture and heat range?
I'm willing to bet not many.

This is my first season Class racing and I am totally overwhelmed.

My house and my friends have all taken a backseat due to the number of hours I have invested setting up the car.

I am one of the lucky ones, as the Super Stock racer, who own the performance shop that I deal with, has taken me under his wing.
If I were doing this on my own, I either would not be as far along as I am now or I would have already packed it in and gone back to bracket racing my 2000 SS.

[Salvatore]

All you need to do is go buy a new:
COPO
Mustang
Drag Pack and you are an instant Stock/SuperStock racer.
NO flogging, no real test and tune.
Complete and ready to go.

[Thomas]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: [email protected]</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All you need to do is go buy a new:
COPO
Mustang
Drag Pack and you are an instant Stock/SuperStock racer.
NO flogging, no real test and tune.
Complete and ready to go. </div></div>

If you think that you are going to buy one of these cars and be competitive, you are mistaken.

Even these cars require endless hours of tuning and setup.

The difference between these newer computer controlled cars and the older carbureted (sp?) versions is that the new cars are tuned with a laptop.

However, you will still need a laptop for the older cars as, if you are not running some form of data logger, you will never figure out where the cars' shortcomings are.

[Salvatore]

Pretty fast right off the Assembly line. If you are a good computer guy you can dial them in pretty good.
Those guys do share info with each other.

[Day2_69Z]

An eye n ear laser light is a prized plug tool....reading the &quot;rainbow&quot; of colors, deposits and metal loss is a guarded science.
As is exhaust exit colors and flame length.
Tuning a boosted engine whether its Nitrous, Super Charger or Turbo(s) is still done by.
&quot;Reading the Bearings&quot;

The best time to tune a carb &amp; plugs for a fine line &quot;close&quot; dial in is at night or in your Dark Trailer where you can read the Header Colors &amp; lenght of Red Hot Pipes. .. . .Decades old , old school tuning WILL NEVER BECOME a THING of the Past,
Right Sam ....?

[napa68]

I love it when you start these threads Eric! It certainly get everyone thinking. Stock and Super Stock engines are the mother of invention <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif

[WILMASBOYL78]

Sammy does his best tuning in the dark <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif

wilma

[Salvatore]

you know it Tommy!

[Thomas]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An eye n ear laser light is a prized plug tool....reading the &quot;rainbow&quot; of colors, deposits and metal loss is a guarded science.
As is exhaust exit colors and flame length.
Tuning a boosted engine whether its Nitrous, Super Charger or Turbo(s) is still done by.
&quot;Reading the Bearings&quot;

The best time to tune a carb &amp; plugs for a fine line &quot;close&quot; dial in is at night or in your Dark Trailer where you can read the Header Colors &amp; lenght of Red Hot Pipes. .. . .Decades old , old school tuning WILL NEVER BECOME a THING of the Past,
Right Sam ....? </div></div>

So, there is someone here who understands what I am still learning. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[EZ Nova]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: [email protected]</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mountain Motors was/is a term used for IHRA Pro Stock racing. 850 cubic inches of whatever.
Usually the Fords got the most cubes out of their stuff.

The Mountain Motor Nationals at MIR. Fun to watch. Most could not qualify at an NHRA Pro Stock event.
</div></div>

MMPS, which I believe is limited to 825, outruns NHRA guys by about 3 tenths. The slow guys in MMPS would just dominate the 500's if they ran together. Our buddy had some issues and didn't qualify, EFI issues MAYBE. BUT have WON a number of MMPS events. If you look at the winners at say last NHRA and MMPS events, 500 win with a 6.62 but MMPS won with a 6.31.

But without a doubt, the NHRA 500 motors are the ELITE of N/A motors. We do have a friend who did just get a &quot;GOOD&quot; motor from the guys at ELITE infact. And even though the S or S/S stuff can run, like AA/HA Hemi's, the 500's are still the undisputed kings of N/A, searching for every hundredth, racing.

[Day2_69Z]

$120,000 @ 850 ci.
VS
$500,000 @ 500 ci.

May have a little something to do with it

R&amp;D &amp; PROVEN RESULTS = $$$$$

[EZ Nova]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$120,000 @ 850 ci.
VS
$500,000 @ 500 ci.

May have a little something to do with it

R&amp;D &amp; PROVEN RESULTS = $$$$$ </div></div>

I think you a bit low on both? Not sure but I recall hearing a lease plan for 500's was about a million per year

[Thomas]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EZ Nova</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$120,000 @ 850 ci.
VS
$500,000 @ 500 ci.

May have a little something to do with it

R&amp;D &amp; PROVEN RESULTS = $$$$$ </div></div>

I think you a bit low on both? Not sure but I recall hearing a lease plan for 500's was about a million per year </div></div>

I do know for a fact that it costs $50,000 to lease a Pro Stock engine for a race.
One of our local guys started dabbling in that until the expense got too much and he gave it up this year.

[EZ Nova]

Yes Marks Deal was pretty sweet. I believe he bought my crew chiefs old car when he went MMPS.

[novadude]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The best time to tune a carb &amp; plugs for a fine line &quot;close&quot; dial in is at night or in your Dark Trailer where you can read the Header Colors &amp; lenght of Red Hot Pipes. .. . .Decades old , old school tuning WILL NEVER BECOME a THING of the Past,
Right Sam ....? </div></div>

I think it already has become a thing of the past with data loggers, widebands, etc. I run a wideband in the Nova and it's a better tool than all the plug reading voodoo.

[old5.0]

Local 89 Mustang notchback, stock short, 20 year old Ultradyne solid roller, home-ported GT40 top end, T5 with modified synchros, stock suspension, 4.30 gears, goes 10.70s regularly and if that thing makes more than 375 to the tires, I'll eat my shoes. Guy's owned it since new, has thousands of passes and knows the car inside and out.

[DW31S]

I've always loved the little &quot;underdogs&quot;. Earlier in the thread MacNeish's D/S was discussed. Yes , 10.40s and a Brinks truck for a tow vehicle. It ain't cheap to play with the NHRA guys, but if you wanna be there in the late rounds that is what it takes. National Records runs are usually on the ragged edge and much like qualifying, is almost NEVER the race set-up. Someone mentioned that if you took a record holding engine out of the record holding car and installed it in a different car itight run 2 seconds slower....so true. The engine is but one piece of the puzzle. I just went 11.83 on an easy test-n-tune pass with a 350 Okds in my '69 W-31. Still need to sort out a few things, but we are on the right path. By far, not the easiest combo. to make a fast car; I wish Danny Latimore was on here. A true MAGICIAN when it comes to doing more with less!!!

[Salvatore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EZ Nova</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$120,000 @ 850 ci.
VS
$500,000 @ 500 ci.

May have a little something to do with it

R&amp;D &amp; PROVEN RESULTS = $$$$$ </div></div>

I think you a bit low on both? Not sure but I recall hearing a lease plan for 500's was about a million per year</div></div>

About right EZ.

[VintageMusclecar]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VintageMusclecar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The power figures are legit. The wink was a nod to the efficiency of the package, that's all. When the vehicle itself is scienced out to the &quot;nth&quot; it doesn't take that much power to run quickly.

I have a friend with a Fox body Mustang that used to be a magazine project car. At the starting line it weighs right around 3000 lbs. The engine is a ridiculously mild carbureted 302, and at the time it was backed up with a prepped OEM 5 speed and a Ford Motorsports Dana rear with a 4.5X gear. On 26X9 tires it ran 11.80's at 110-ish. On a chassis dyno it barely cracked 300 HP. (It now runs a prepped C4 and is a tad slower due to other issues)
</div></div>

Here's the car I'm referencing:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/07/full-1124-29175-neils_mustang.jpg

[Day2_69Z]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: [email protected]</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EZ Nova</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$120,000 @ 850 ci.
VS
$500,000 @ 500 ci.

May have a little something to do with it

R&amp;D &amp; PROVEN RESULTS = $$$$$ </div></div>
I think you a bit low on both? Not sure but I recall hearing a lease plan for 500's was about a million per year</div></div>

About right EZ.</div></div>

My referenced $500,000 wasn't for a Whole Season
of a Lease Plan.....But to Buy and own 1 engine + spares to be able to race and not Blow it up. (Blowing one up means pushing rods out of the Block or Pan, Busting up the Crank and or Block.)
Maintenance such as dozens of pistons,rods, a 1/2 dozen Billet cams, a Dozen Lifter pairs....some sleeves , ,,,, Valves and Valve train. Etc is just &quot;maintaining what you race with&quot; .........
Leasing a one race deal engine for $50k doesn't get you much to compete with , let alone qualify with.

A $1,000,000 Lease plan on a Elite type package Only Gets you The Motor Exchange Plan......If you Blow it/them Up....you're Bill Goes way Up.
And you nor your crew chief Can Not Pull the Heads !!!!

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VintageMusclecar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VintageMusclecar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The power figures are legit. The wink was a nod to the efficiency of the package, that's all. When the vehicle itself is scienced out to the &quot;nth&quot; it doesn't take that much power to run quickly.

I have a friend with a Fox body Mustang that used to be a magazine project car. At the starting line it weighs right around 3000 lbs. The engine is a ridiculously mild carbureted 302, and at the time it was backed up with a prepped OEM 5 speed and a Ford Motorsports Dana rear with a 4.5X gear. On 26X9 tires it ran 11.80's at 110-ish. On a chassis dyno it barely cracked 300 HP. (It now runs a prepped C4 and is a tad slower due to other issues)
</div></div>

Here's the car I'm referencing:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/07/full-1124-29175-neils_mustang.jpg
</div></div>

Oh man. Off topic, but thanks for posting a pic of that car. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[miket1]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VintageMusclecar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One more from Wade on the ST forum. Note this was posted 4 years ago:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No tricks really. Lots of testing on cams, converters and carburetors. Our spec Ross pistons, Manley rods from the NHRA approved list and Total Seal Gapless rings and pins must weigh at least 1195 grams. Our best cams are in the 262/266 @ .050 range. We have 5 or 6 cast iron intakes (we can legally run a 327/300 manifold) and randomly test at the track for which is quickest. The light oil doesnt work for us, we use 5/20 Royal Purple, 3-5 qts depending on what we're doing. Stock oil pans and stock appearing cranks also hurt us. The any valve job rule did pick our program up, though. 2.08 first gear and a 5.86 in the rear creates a 7600 finish line rpm......

That 11.46 run was 1.47 60', 7.19 660', 11.46 @ 112.99 in 2700' of air. We done this at an Indy div last year.</div></div> </div></div>

Wade is a very good friend of mine, he is a very sharp guy that researches and does his homework, he has tuned &amp; tweaked his Chevelle for years, and he hangs with other stock class racers like the Wenzel brothers, Jerry MacNeish, etc.

[Vortecpro]

&quot;In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 &amp; 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated &amp; raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work.&quot;
_________________________



This is not correct information. Eric you are right 373 crank shaft HP does deliver this type of performance at Wades given weight. Its absurd to believe any one has any reason to mislead HP figures on this car. The 305 stocker BTW is a stronger package by far than the 283 combination. Stocker heads have non of these above modifications. Its all about making your power at a higher RPM then being able to carry the power, then theres the rolling car which sets some people apart from the rest.

[Vortecpro]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KenMaisano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw

</div></div>
In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 &amp; 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated &amp; raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work.</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98

Yep they look like W2 mopar heads. Neat stuff!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw

</div></div>
In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 &amp; 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated &amp; raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work.</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw

</div></div>
In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 &amp; 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated &amp; raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work.</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw

</div></div>
In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 &amp; 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated &amp; raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work.</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 67 Nova Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2eawiyK98

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtSSMSDHysw

</div></div>
In modern NHRA STOCK CLASS, 302 &amp; 305 Heads are so exotic that the valves are relocated, cantilevered and the heads cut in 1/4's , relocated &amp; raised ports, rewelded etc, etc, etc......its common to have $18 - $ 22,000 + in heads and intake work.</div></div> </div></div>


Ken, you know this is ridiculous.

[Vortecpro]

Heres something to consider.......

Kip Martins 467 HP 289 Ford, cast crank, stock main bolts, flattop piston, 1.780 valve 220 HP 289 heads, 435 CFM Motor craft 4 BBL. 10.27 @ 127 MPH @ 29.00 baro, @ 2950


https://youtu.be/RRSuTojvuWA
https://youtu.be/lcik-ukgfyo

[RichSchmidt]

You have to look at the entire car. The top guys have drive train parts that are built like a violin. They rollerize everything,machine every last part until it is the minimum size or thickness needed to do the job. They will run a rear end with a cupful of zero weight motor oil in it,the same for manual transmissions. You could probably walk up to an engine less manual trans stocker on jack stands and spin the input shaft of the trans with one hand and watch the wheels turn. Spin it hard enough,and the wheels will probably keep turning for a while. Everything is butterly smooth.

[Salvatore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vortecpro</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Heres something to consider.......

Kip Martins 467 HP 289 Ford, cast crank, stock main bolts, flattop piston, 1.780 valve 220 HP 289 heads, 435 CFM Motor craft 4 BBL. 10.27 @ 127 MPH @ 29.00 baro, @ 2950


https://youtu.be/RRSuTojvuWA
https://youtu.be/lcik-ukgfyo

</div></div>

Exactly right. Kip Martin is really dialed in. he is Patterson's buddy isn't he?

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichSchmidt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have to look at the entire car. The top guys have drive train parts that are built like a violin. They rollerize everything,machine every last part until it is the minimum size or thickness needed to do the job. They will run a rear end with a cupful of zero weight motor oil in it,the same for manual transmissions. You could probably walk up to an engine less manual trans stocker on jack stands and spin the input shaft of the trans with one hand and watch the wheels turn. Spin it hard enough,and the wheels will probably keep turning for a while. Everything is butterly smooth. </div></div>

Over on hardcore5.0.com, there's a 93 Mustang GT, street car, absolutely stock untouched shortblock, H/C/I car that runs 10.50's N/A. Optimal efficiency is vastly under-appreciated.

[Day2_69Z]

How did this turn into a bashing with prejudice to a Ford 289....?????
This is a small motor thread started by CHEVY GUYS.....GO TO FORD 5.0 IF THATS ALL YOI WANNS DO IS BE A SUCK UP TOLD YA SO.
AND DONT HI-JACK SOMEONE ELSES THREAD........
FORDS ARE SO GREAT ,,,,WHERES A PRO STOCK F.O.R.D.
......wack job !

[Day2_69Z]

You probably never Built a Real Engine in your life
Let alone go 150 mph.....unless its an HO A/FX slot car at scale speed....

By the way......this is a REAL RACE CAR.....!!!!!http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-13370-31129-img_1512.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-13370-31130-img_1508.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-13370-31131-img_1502.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-13370-31132-img_1498.jpg

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How did this turn into a bashing with prejudice to a Ford 289....?????
This is a small motor thread started by CHEVY GUYS.....GO TO FORD 5.0 IF THATS ALL YOI WANNS DO IS BE A SUCK UP TOLD YA SO.
AND DONT HI-JACK SOMEONE ELSES THREAD........
FORDS ARE SO GREAT ,,,,WHERES A PRO STOCK F.O.R.D.
......wack job ! </div></div>

Lol. What are you, drunk?

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You probably never Built a Real Engine in your life
Let alone go 150 mph.....unless its an HO A/FX slot car at scale speed....

By the way......this is a REAL RACE CAR.....!!!!!http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-13370-31129-img_1512.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-13370-31130-img_1508.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-13370-31131-img_1502.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-13370-31132-img_1498.jpg
</div></div>

Listen, genius, the point of my post had nothing to do with Ford vs. Chevy, Ford vs. Mopar, or Ford vs. anything. The point was that guys who put in the hard work to optimize a particular combination will <span style="font-style: italic">always</span> have the edge over check writers and Keyboard Kommandos. The point was that it doesn't take a gazillion horsepower and the latest trick-part-of-the-week to put together a brutally quick car. The <span style="font-style: italic">point</span> was that any jackass with a credit card can build (or have built) a racecar, but an efficient package, front to back, in the hands of a competent tuner/driver will always be more impressive when one examines the details, regardless of whether it's a Ford, Chevy, Mopar, NHRA Stocker, NMRA Factory Stocker, or whatever else. Hate Fords all you like; if you're not impressed by the obvious work and dedication it takes to put a stock short 302 Mustang <span style="font-weight: bold">street car with stock suspension</span> in the mid-10's on motor, you need a new hobby, friend, because cars ain't for you. And I'd say the same if it was an equivalent 350 Camaro or 340 Cuda we were talking about.

As for the rest of your crap, where's Ford in Pro Stock? Owning that **** for the first <span style="font-style: italic">decade</span> of the 500 cube era, until they didn't feel like it anymore.

Build an engine? I started when I was 8 years old. With a small block Chevy.

And by the way, here's a real racecar:

http://i59.tinypic.com/29p3ntu.jpg

Just so you're not confused: <span style="font-weight: bold">281 cubes, assembly line heads, block, cam drive and valve followers, 5.92@248 in the quarter mile.</span>

Class dismissed.

[Day2_69Z]

Dorothy...
You're not inKansas anymore...

For one....
I am impressed with Ford Performance....
Mustangs and all.....

I enjoyed the take on all contributed info

I just think the Thread was over taken.....

Genius ? I kinda like the moniker
2015 , 2016 ,,,,the BLUE OVAL is MIA in PRO STOCK

I thrive on threads like this as I'm controversial and opinionated by nature for the simple reason, I am not a Yes guy, go along guy with the flow .

Looking forward to more threads for us to meet up against and or team up.

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dorothy...
You're not inKansas anymore...

For one....
I am impressed with Ford Performance....
Mustangs and all.....

I enjoyed the take on all contributed info

I just think the Thread was over taken.....

Genius ? I kinda like the moniker
2015 , 2016 ,,,,the BLUE OVAL is MIA in PRO STOCK

I thrive on threads like this as I'm controversial and opinionated by nature for the simple reason, I am not a Yes guy, go along guy with the flow .

Looking forward to more threads for us to meet up against and or team up.
</div></div>

I look forward to it, sir. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif

[Day2_69Z]

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif

Bring it....well fling wing &amp; flog it !!

[Vortecpro]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You probably never Built a Real Engine in your life
Let alone go 150 mph.....unless its an HO A/FX slot car at scale speed....

By the way......this is a REAL RACE CAR.....!!!!!http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-13370-31129-img_1512.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-13370-31130-img_1508.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-13370-31131-img_1502.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-13370-31132-img_1498.jpg
</div></div>

Since you had to bring in HO racing.....here you go.

HOPRA Past Champions
Rick DeRosa
Kim Bartholomew
Joel Pennington
Craig Braga
RESTRICTED OPEN
Kim Bartholomew
Al Thurman
Tim Saari
Joel Pennington
RESTRICTED OPEN
Thom Hitchcox
Scott Terry
Joel Pennington
Rick DeRosa
ANGLED CERAMIC
Kim Bartholomew
Mark Rosenwinkel
Vanya Levey
Joel Pennington
RARE EARTH
Kim Bartholomew
Joel Pennington
Thom Hitchcox
Don Salton
RARE EARTH
Mark Jones VORTECPRO
Nick Toma
Tom Bowman
Bruce Schmitt
CERAMIC
Norm Gardner
Joel Pennington
Herb Henson Sr
Bruce Schmitt
CERAMIC
Joel Pennington
Kim Bartholomew
Mark Rosenwinkel
Pat McGee
RARE EARTH
1975 - 1st INDEPENDENCE, MO
1982 - 8th ROCKFORD, IL
1981 - 7th JACKSON, MI
1980 - 6th INDIANAPOLIS, IN
1979 - 5th DETROIT, MI
1978 - 4th BUENA PARK, CA VORTECPRO
1977 - 3rd FLORA, IL
1976 - 2nd LAKE BLUFF, IL


BTW zoomie power adder racing means absolutely nothing to me.
Vortecpro G/SA 5770