1969 Camaro Z/28 w/Special Order Paint

[69VN]

Saw this on Mecum this morning...'69 Camaro Z/28 to go up for auction at Mecum in Harrisburg later this month. Looks like a neat color!

https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail/PA0715-224801/0/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-Z28/4-Speed/

Sal <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[69LM1]

Its been discussed here before. I wonder why they chose to put the 67-8 forced air system on it, was that even an option on the 69's pre cowl hood?

Rich

[olredalert]

----Could a special order Z like this be ordered with the endura bumper?.......Bill S

[miket1]

I like that cowl plenum air intake,

[Day2_69Z]

I was schooled very early cars were available with the cowl plenum from the factory (also over the counter) I don't believe endura bumpers were available that early though......
It would be cool to see docs confirming all 4
The bumper, cowl plenum,NC8 &amp; D80 ....but I don't see anything special about the standard interior
&quot;Specified as Special int group ....?

The original owner lives in Delmont ,Pa &amp; Florida if memory serves me correct

That car was sold on eBay about a year ago or less. Grabiak is in my backyard.. a well known Corvette and Hi Performance Dealer back then &amp; somewhat still...... located only a few miles from Keystone Raceway Park now called Pgh Raceway Park.

[69VN]

My eyes must be getting real bad...but I see that it's a stripe-delete car as well.

[Day2_69Z]

I see.... wonder if its a dash B ...should be an early tag as well ...

I do believe that car SHOULD have A Short spoiler....hmmmm

[PeteLeathersac]

Is this 124379N546311 ?
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif
~ Pete

[al8apex]

cool &quot;Pontiac&quot; color and options

the car should also have 4 leaf rear springs ... I count 5 leafs on the car

[Lynn]

Not saying this car is one of them, but it may be possible, albeit not likely.

From CRG: Factory documentation indicates that all 68-69 Z28's should have 4-leaf springs. One Z28 (a 69) has been found with apparently original 5-leaf springs. The 5-leaf spring usage on a Z28 should not be considered normative and CRG continues research whether 5-leaf springs were factory installed on the Z28.

[Day2_69Z]

Good eye Lynn.....
The only 5 leaf 69 Z/28's I've ever seen in person or in feature write-ups or eBay HAD the Generic Aftermarket cheapie springs that resemble 70 &amp; up Nova &amp; Camaro......

Just a thought here in another direction:
GM / Chevy rear springs were &quot;Computer Matched to individual cars with variation in options.
Options mean weight. A HEAVILY OPTIONED Z with ZL2 hood, VE3, RS , Power everything, Deluxe Int.,Fold Down seat,AM/FM multiplex, Tape deck,tilt wheel etc, etc .. theroreticaly may have had 5 leaves....but I seriously doubt it.

PS....the Pontiac /Olds Posi Tag on an early 12 Bolt, No WAY !
same with the USS stencil on the bottom of the tank ...a Restored car opens alot of speculation and guessing to the builder as their &quot;perception is Reality&quot;

[m22mike]

I see alot of goofy happy marks on this car and bogas stickers that were never used on 69 Camaro's. I won't go into hardware plating.
But I must mention my very favorite happy mark on this car. The two &quot;YELLOW&quot; paint marks on the axle tube rosette welds. Really... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/sick.gif...all these little tell tale signs paint a picture that the informed see as a red flag. Not to worry, some deep pocket guy will grab it and be happy as a pig in slop.

Mike

[JackB]

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=207776

[ZLP955]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't see anything special about the standard interior
&quot;Specified as Special int group ....?</div></div>
Special Interior was available as a standalone option (Z23):
http://www.camaros.org/options.shtml#CustomSpecialInterior

[watk69]

My head hurts after reading the Team Camaro diatribe <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

[RLS_Jr]

Yes, the original owner does live in Delmont, His wife did not care for the color , so they traded it in on 1970 LS-6 Chevelle.



Ron Starry

[x77-69z28]

I understand why she didn't like the color!

[Day2_69Z]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RLS_Jr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, the original owner does live in Delmont, His wife did not care for the color , so they traded it in on 1970 LS-6 Chevelle.



Ron Starry</div></div>

So is/ was the car a Cortez silver Stripe delete as JM verified it as or the color as advertised ?

[MarcDant]

According to the trim tag its deffinetly not silver.Gm does hold extremely high quality controll standards.The over spray on door and drip moulding does have a pinkish tint to it.

[Day2_69Z]

Marshall,
What you posted makes absolutely no sense at all.

[Salvatore]

HAA, that was a good one Tom!

[Lynn]

Tom:

I think Marshall is referencing the pics on the first page of the camaros.net thread on this car. It was hotly debated there ad nauseum.

Original owner swears it was evening orchid. Jerry thought it looked like Cortez Silver. One never knows with computers and digital pics, but the first time I saw pics of the overspray on the doors, I sure THOUGHT it looked like Orchid. I didn't have the luxury of seeing it in person.

Marshall:

The - paint code simply means special paint; i.e. something different from the norm. So, a Z with stripe delete would get a - paint code, even if it WERE a standard color. This trim tag doesn't settle the issue of what color the car was originally.

[MarcDant]

yes thats what ment.some one understood.Thanks lynn.I was not wanting a p--sing match.

[RLS_Jr]

I know Grabiak Chevrolet very well, One of the Salesmen is still there , remembers the car very well, was special order paint car. The original owner still buys new Chevrolets there.


Ron Starry

[Day2_69Z]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marshall</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yes thats what ment.some one understood.Thanks lynn.I was not wanting a p--sing match.</div></div>

Alls good..
These discussios are just that...discovery

[black69]

GM has a new color called Lucious Kiss Pink.
When you see it in person, it looks close to the color of this car.
Maybe this color will become popular again.

[wagonman]

I Always liked EO Paint.

Used to be an SS only color on earlier models.

Some buyer may not care of the original heritage,the current or future value. or not what the masses think.

They may purchase on what they like.

[Day2_69Z]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RLS_Jr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know Grabiak Chevrolet very well, One of the Salesmen is still there , remembers the car very well, was special order paint car. The original owner still buys new Chevrolets there.


Ron Starry</div></div>

Ron
How close are you to the track ? Jug road ?

There's a &quot;Rumored&quot; 66 Nova (Stripped Shell )
of Racing Heritage supposedly sitting on the grounds of a closed down gas station/ repair center ...the owner lives in the office???..
Any knowledge. ?

An added note:
Remember the Old Modified Early 60's NOVA ,
THE &quot; NOISE MAKER&quot;. ?
its back from the Dead and on the Street In its Old Livery Paint Scheme. ...

[RLS_Jr]

Within 2 miles west of the track. no knowledge of the nova,


Ron Starry

[markinnaples]

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416890

[resto4u]

If special paint was ordered and that color was not in the assembly plant, what was the process to get it to that assembly plant? depending on what year, some plants built other car bodies with the camaro. Then they might have the color already in the plant. special paint, did it have to be a color available that year from any gm family?

[442w30]

There are non-GM-colored cars out there. I can think of two documented Plum Crazy cars for starters.

[earntaz]

What was the &quot;purple&quot; used on 67 Camaros -- I think that was a regular option ... had a friend that bought a new Camaro that color. Called it his &quot;Purple People Eater&quot;. TAZ

[Charley Lillard]

Royal Plum

[protree68]

We like royal plum

[Day2_69Z]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/07/full-13370-29463-img_20150726_185004.jpg

Its alive ......
Snapped this at a local gas station . ....

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/07/full-13370-29464-img_20150726_184954.jpg

[Tracker1]

Yup. And 46 years later, still ugly.

[Day2_69Z]

Ugly is understated. ..
A 65 Impala SS
A 65 MALUBU SS ....

SOMEWHAT ACCECTABLE....

why after 40 -50 years so many Love a Color that only gets uglier......they love it though
YET , DONT HAVE ONE IN THERE COLLECTION ...
Some Car Colors are just downright nasty....
Some 69 Camaro colors are really bad now and were then.....so I guess some ordered special paints.

[wagonman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tracker1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yup. And 46 years later, still ugly. </div></div>

Thats funny!

Reminds me of ...

I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.

Winston Churchill

[wagonman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ugly is understated. ..
A 65 Impala SS
A 65 MALUBU SS ....

SOMEWHAT ACCECTABLE....

why after 40 -50 years so many Love a Color that only gets uglier......they love it though
YET , DONT HAVE ONE IN THERE COLLECTION ...
Some Car Colors are just downright nasty....
Some 69 Camaro colors are really bad now and were then.....so I guess some ordered special paints. </div></div>


DON'T FORGET THE 1965 SUPER SPORT NOVA....

[TimG]

I remember a neighbor had an Impala convertible in this color when I was a kid and I loved it.

[Tracker1]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TimG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I remember a neighbor had an Impala convertible in this color when I was a kid and I loved it. </div></div>

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/07/full-3497-29576-impalpink.jpg

[Tracker1]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/07/full-3497-29578-bwimpala.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/07/full-3497-29579-colorimpala.jpg

[Day2_69Z]

Wow this thread has a lot of input....

What a color brings out in us......

O I don't mind it on someone else's car.....just not mine !

I parted out an Impala SS HDTP as pictured ....no body wanted to buy sheet metal from it.
They said they didn't want pink parts on their car..... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/whistle.gif

[JayR]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Royal Plum </div></div>
Royal Plum got it's start as Plum Mist Metallic in Canada in 1966. In the Nova and Acadian line, it was an SS and SD color only. Was that the same for 1966 Chevelle and Impala in Canada? In fact, it was the only dedicated Nova SS and Acadian SD color. You could have any other colors you wanted and any two tone combinations.

When I was a young disc jockey, I was doing an on location broadcast at our local Chevrolet dealer for the 1965 model introduction. There was a beautiful Evening Orchid/white trim Impala SS as the showroom center piece. Nobody had noticed, except me, that it had a 327 emblem on the left front fender and 283 on the right. So it was in the mid 60's.

Bob

[Day2_69Z]

There ya go....Confirmed Proof of Identity crisis !!.
Even the assembly workers were dumbfounded by its personality disorder......lmao.....

[442w30]

I know in 1966 it was available for the Riviera and possibly others - maybe the Toronado?

Mid-year 1966, Pontiac released it too but I've never seen one in this color.

It is perhaps my favorite color from the era. Love Iris Mist too.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JayR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Royal Plum got it's start as Plum Mist Metallic in Canada in 1966. In the Nova and Acadian line, it was an SS and SD color only. Was that the same for 1966 Chevelle and Impala in Canada? In fact, it was the only dedicated Nova SS and Acadian SD color. You could have any other colors you wanted and any two tone combinations.

When I was a young disc jockey, I was doing an on location broadcast at our local Chevrolet dealer for the 1965 model introduction. There was a beautiful Evening Orchid/white trim Impala SS as the showroom center piece. Nobody had noticed, except me, that it had a 327 emblem on the left front fender and 283 on the right. So it was in the mid 60's.

Bob </div></div>

[tom406]

Absolutely my all time favorite '65 GTO color. 20 years ago I got to drive an Iris Mist/Ivory/Ivory '65 GTO convertible, 3x2 4speed with Hurst Wheels. It's still the standard by which I judge....

[earntaz]

That is a pretty Goat -- dig the white interior ... TAZ

[Charley Lillard]

I love that color.

[Nasblu]

In 1962 Tangier Shrine Corvette Patrol got approval through Chevrolet COPO program to paint there 1962 Corvettes a Cadillac color called Royal Heather Amethyst. Similar to Iris Mist or Evening Orchard.

[TimG]

Tracker1, that's the car, the exact interior color and all.....cool.

[markinnaples]

I really don't mind the color, but as some of you who have seen my Camaro, that I don't shy away from bright colors doesn't come as a surprise. I think it pairs better with the early-mid 60's cars like that Corvette above, the Impala and '65 GTO better than the '69 Camaro Z.

That said, I really, truly wish the public would start buying more cars that aren't silver/black or white. Sheesh people, have some individuality, and don't get me started on the whole black wheel thing...

[watk69]

the fact that it got to 170 and it took 200k to buy it is astounding

[Charley Lillard]

Mecum site says the bid goes on at 160K as the final bid.

[watk69]

true Charlie, still astonishing though

[70 copo]

If the bids were real then the hobby just passed judgement on the pedigree issues with the car that have been raised on other forums.

[William]

I don't recall &quot;the hobby&quot; being present when Jerry &amp; I spent two hours examining this car before it was restored.

[novadude]

I gave my old '70 Nova to my Dad, and when he restored / modifed it, he chose to paint it 1965 Evening Orchid. Sharp eyed observers will also note that we did something a little different with the hood too. Also changed the large 70-72 marker lights to something &quot;period&quot;, but a little cleaner (hint: think '69 Chevy product) <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~john.sm/hood2.JPG

[Day2_69Z]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nasblu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In 1962 Tangier Shrine Corvette Patrol got approval through Chevrolet COPO program to paint there 1962 Corvettes a Cadillac color called Royal Heather Amethyst. Similar to Iris Mist or Evening Orchard.
</div></div>

Now, this car in the year 1962....is nice....
A deeper pigment . .
Still, its an era color....out of vogue in '69

JMNSHO

[JRC99]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: novadude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I gave my old '70 Nova to my Dad, and when he restored / modifed it, he chose to paint it 1965 Evening Orchid. Sharp eyed observers will also note that we did something a little different with the hood too. Also changed the large 70-72 marker lights to something &quot;period&quot;, but a little cleaner (hint: think '69 Chevy product) <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~john.sm/hood2.JPG </div></div>

I like that. 67 Chevelle hood vents if I'm not mistaken (raised section too of course).

[442w30]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Now, this car in the year 1962....is nice....
A deeper pigment . .
Still, its an era color....out of vogue in '69
</div></div>

For a performance car, perhaps, but what about an Electra convertible?

[watk69]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't recall &quot;the hobby&quot; being present when Jerry &amp; I spent two hours examining this car before it was restored. </div></div>

I concur, I think its just a masterful job of original owner whipping things up to a fever pitch prior to the auction. If you two said it was silver and the &quot;--&quot; stood for stripe delete, that's what I'd take to the bank, notarized statements from salesmen and owner be damned. If he's so adamant where's the original bill of sale saying evening orchid special order paint?

[Charley Lillard]

Did you miss the pics with the door panels off showing the Evening Orchid overspray ?

[KENNY PASCOE]

I looked at all the pics during the restoration and original paint / overspray was evident in many places . KP

[William]

We were there Charlie. You and everyone else were not. My opinion of what we saw has not changed one bit.

[Fast67VelleN2O]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We were there Charlie. You and everyone else were not. My opinion of what we saw has not changed one bit. </div></div>

Is there any pre-restoration photos out there?

[Fast67VelleN2O]

Because if this was me, I would have taken about 1,000 photos documenting an original Evening Orchid 1969 Camaro Z28 prior to restoring it.

[watk69]

I guess it will always be a topic of debate that will never be fully answered. But even a rank amateur like me can color correct a cell phone pic to be any number of colors. I can make that pic show lime metallic green on the inside of the door with the candy maroon on the door sill.

[William]

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt65/JJZ109/image001_zpsa94e44a0.png (http://s598.photobucket.com/user/JJZ109/media/image001_zpsa94e44a0.png.html)

First photo is of the cowl side pod taken by the owner around 2012.
Second photo is a snip of a photo of the car taken around 1970-color matches the 2012 photo.
Third photo is a restored EO '65 Impala.
Fourth photo taken by the owner is the car in question during restoration.

You be the judge.

[70 copo]

I do not see Cortez in the photo what I see is subject to lighting, fade and shadow.

IR paint scanner would have been helpful here

[Charley Lillard]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KENNY PASCOE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I looked at all the pics during the restoration and original paint / overspray was evident in many places . KP </div></div>

Did you see Cortez Silver or Evening Orchid ?

[novadude]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRC99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like that. 67 Chevelle hood vents if I'm not mistaken (raised section too of course). </div></div>

Yes. We had a real '67 SS hood hanging on the wall with MAJOR rot on the front edge. Got to comparing it to the nova hood and realized size and proportions were the same. We took the whole center from the Chevelle hood, cut the center out of the Nova hood, and used the MIG to combine the two. Funny thing is that many people at car cruises that didn't know Novas just assumed it came that way.

[bkhpah]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-10-29819-p9160174_2.jpg
For what its worth, a picture of the door panel being pulled back to show what would appear to be an unmolested weather barrier with the factory tape and sealers still in place, along with the unpainted brown door panel clip inserts. I personally know Clem and the Grabiak family. Why would they not know what they ordered in the fall of 1968?..BKH

[William]

We also peeled the door panel as shown in the photo. Mostly primer with a thin coat of paint; dust and dirt visible in the photo. Look at the finish near the clip retainer.

What we saw is represented by the first two of the four photos-silver. At the time, we concluded the car was Cortez Silver stripe delete. All we knew going into this was that it had - B paint. We did not know of the EO claim and had not seen the 1970 photo of it. The original owner was not involved at that time. Based on what we saw, EO was ridiculous and remains so. Not for an instant did I believe that car had ever been EO.

Later on when photos of the car dismantled were posted it was apparent the OE color had a lavender tint. A few people capable of intelligent debate posed another theory: The car may have been '69 GM color code #81. Olds called it Flamingo Silver; Buick Sunset Silver. Since then I have seen a '69 Olds in that color. If you're standing next to the car it looks silver. From a distance, definitely not silver. But nowhere near as dark as EO.

Cortez Silver? #81 Silver? Certainly one of the two. All I know is what it wasn't.

[Charley Lillard]

So the two of you did the same thing to that door panel and you didn't see the purple color ? Isn't it possible that maybe you just didn't take notice because you weren't looking for it ?

[William]

As I stated the paint under the door panel is mostly primer with a light top coat. We also looked at several other areas on the car. How about concentrating on the photos I posted? Particularly the cowl side pod photo taken by the owner.

We spent two hours examining the car inside a building and outside in natural light. Two hours.

[watk69]

The is the primer on some hidden areas on the famous survivor that has been discussed for quite some time



Hugger Survivor (http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=12083.0;all)


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b384/watk69/1969%20Z28/purple%20primer.jpg

[Charley Lillard]

So you guys spent two hours and never saw any of the purple that people are posting pics of ? Did you see the area in the above pic ? Did you get a pic ?

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We also peeled the door panel as shown in the photo. Mostly primer with a thin coat of paint; dust and dirt visible in the photo. Look at the finish near the clip retainer.

What we saw is represented by the first two of the four photos-silver. At the time, we concluded the car was Cortez Silver stripe delete. All we knew going into this was that it had - B paint. We did not know of the EO claim and had not seen the 1970 photo of it. The original owner was not involved at that time. Based on what we saw, EO was ridiculous and remains so. Not for an instant did I believe that car had ever been EO.

Later on when photos of the car dismantled were posted it was apparent the OE color had a lavender tint. A few people capable of intelligent debate posed another theory: The car may have been '69 GM color code #81. Olds called it Flamingo Silver; Buick Sunset Silver. Since then I have seen a '69 Olds in that color. If you're standing next to the car it looks silver. From a distance, definitely not silver. But nowhere near as dark as EO.

Cortez Silver? #81 Silver? Certainly one of the two. All I know is what it wasn't.


</div></div>

a few observations.....unless I am seeing it wrong, it looks like they painted the bottom of the original weatherstrip when they painted the car without taping it at all...which happens on a cheaper paint job.So assuming that is primer on the inside of the door, why would there be no primer on the clip retainers??? with all due respect William, I think I could have believed it was cortez silver if I had no clue of the possible EO connection...it seems the original owner and also atleast one witness knew the car being EO back in the day..... jmho

[bkhpah]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-10-29831-img_0165_1.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-10-29832-img_0163_1.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-10-29833-img_0162_1.jpg

This Camaro was very well known in Western PA. A lot of the old school guys to this day remember Clem's &quot;purple&quot; Z/28. I know the Grabiak Family and we buy from them. A VERY well known hi-performance dealer to this day. I really cannot imagine why some 45+ years later, the original owner of the car and the selling dealer would care one bit, to all get together and fabricate a story for the new owner. It makes no sense at all. And why would they insist, in writing, that the car was ordered this way if it hadn't been. It would seem that most people do not care for the OE color, even Clem himself was disappointed with it. All the people I talked to at Mecum told me the car was gorgeous in person. For some reason I cannot explain, the people that were there at the inception of this car in 1968, when it was ordered, and the day it was received at Grabiak's are treated as if they didn't have a clue ...BKH

[William]

What is seen on the inside of the door is factory primer with very little top coat. We looked in several other areas with much better original paint coverage. All we saw was some form of silver paint. Had you been standing there telling me it was EO I would have laughed at you. EO is much darker than either silver mentioned.

I'm well aware of how the car was initially ordered. EO was not a current model year color. So Central Office contacts the dealer proposing a substitution. His wife worked there; says ok. Maybe never mentioned it. That car was ordered 47 years ago and there is no mention of EO on the original paperwork. The &quot;paperwork&quot; you have posted was done decades later. 47 years is long time. Look up #81 on AutoColorLibrary.com under '69 Oldsmobile-looks very similar to EO but in reality is much lighter. Maybe that's why the owner was disappointed?

None of you guys saw the original paint. We did.

[cook_dw]

Obviously I am not a &quot;Camaro god&quot; but I am not color blind either.. How can one dispute the original owner, photos &amp; others from the time and area that remember the car.?. My point is maybe it wasnt EO put it wasnt Cortez Silver either.

[Charley Lillard]

Are you saying this was done decades later ? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-23-29834-full_10_29831_img_0165_1.jpg

[Charley Lillard]

Does anyone have period pics of the car from back in the day ?

[bkhpah]

I would have to say that not a single person here saw the original color except the original owner and Grabiaks. Of course Mrs.Z is now a prime suspect in this mystery. ..BKH

[iluv69s]

the paperwork is fake??? maybe I am wrong, but seems 'special paint' would mean more than just stripe delete . Are there any other examples of stripe delete cars w paperwork?? how is it worded on their paperwork???

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: resto4u</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If special paint was ordered and that color was not in the assembly plant, what was the process to get it to that assembly plant? depending on what year, some plants built other car bodies with the camaro. Then they might have the color already in the plant. special paint, did it have to be a color available that year from any gm family? </div></div>

Special paint process, per author/historian Eric White (originally written for discussion on a Pontiac forum):

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gtoric</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The procedure for getting a special-paint car ordered went like this:

• The customer (or dealership) determines what color is desired.

• An &quot;All Series Special Equipment&quot; order form is filled out.

The information required for a special-paint-request on this form is:
• Lower Color Paint No.
• Upper Color Paint No.
• Make of Car &amp; Year Paint Used.
I am guessing that obtaining the correct paint no. would be left up to the ordering salesman/dealership paint department.

In the '60s and early '70s, before colored plastic/fiberglass trim parts became common, any color paint could be ordered, as long as the dealer could supply the paint formula no. on the S.O. form. After the mid-'70s when the crash-bumper fillers became common place, special order colors were phased out except for large fleet orders.

Several codes were used on the Fisher Body trim tag to indicate a special-order paint. Codes varied between the years and between Fisher Body plants. Some of the codes used were:
1= Standard GM paint, not a Pontiac color
2= Special Pontiac color. Sometimes offered a half-year &quot;springtime&quot; color.
3= Cadillac FireFrost color. This paint was not normally allowed on a Pontiac build because of the special processes required to apply this type of paint.
4= Body in primer
SPEC or ** would indicate a paint color from a source outside GM (Ford, Chryco, AMC, John Deere, International Harvester, etc.) Colors could also be ordered to match school or business colors. As long as a formula no. could be identified by the dealership just about any color hue could be specified.

• The order was then routed through the Pontiac Zone office, which then routed it on to the Central Office.

• Central Office then entered a request to the paint supplier, usually PPG/Ditzler, for the appropriate paint.

• The paint supplier shipped a quantity of paint to the appropriate assembly plant.

• The special-order build was scheduled and coordinated between the Fisher plant and GMAD or Pontiac assembly.

• Build was delivered to dealership with a quart of touch up paint in trunk.
</div></div>

I have also seen a double &quot;&amp;&quot; (double ampersand) to designate special paint, on a Pontiac plant cowl data tag.

Most assembly plants have/had a special paint system, separate from the main line, where smaller paint pots could be loaded with low production volume colors, which would minimize the amount of waste when flushing the system. Typically these were done for fleet and special equipment runs (Grand Trunk RR, RCMP, Bell Telephone, etc). We also have had some plants were the special colors were run through the paint repair line rather than the main assembly process.

K

[Charley Lillard]

Looks lighter than EO to me but I see the purple tint.http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-23-29842-eo.jpg

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bkhpah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This Camaro was very well known in Western PA. A lot of the old school guys to this day remember Clem's &quot;purple&quot; Z/28. I know the Grabiak Family and we buy from them. A VERY well known hi-performance dealer to this day. I really cannot imagine why some 45+ years later, the original owner of the car and the selling dealer would care one bit, to all get together and fabricate a story for the new owner. It makes no sense at all. And why would they insist, in writing, that the car was ordered this way if it hadn't been. It would seem that most people do not care for the OE color, even Clem himself was disappointed with it. All the people I talked to at Mecum told me the car was gorgeous in person. For some reason I cannot explain, the people that were there at the inception of this car in 1968, when it was ordered, and the day it was received at Grabiak's are treated as if they didn't have a clue ...BKH </div></div>

So we have verbal testimony from the original owner, and signed/notarized letters from the original owner and selling dealership, and it is being disputed?

God help me. I don't stand a chance.

K

[68l30]

That is one Bad A$$ looking Camaro....Love it!


BIG

[rts]

Just my own opinion!!!
How does any one dispute what the original owner stated???
From what I know from other corvette forums Clem is very well thought after, how can anyone dispute what he's states???

Just my thoughts

[70 copo]

As to what Brian said earlier about the original owners/eye witnesses being treated as if they have &quot;no clue&quot;... The same exact thing happens to the Norwood factory workers today on many issues relating to historical production practices.

This is not isolated to entrenched positions on the originality of a specific vehicle as the same kind of bickering repeatedly happens when production artifacts are produced or information is disseminated that conflicts with the established group think on a topic.


It is sad that that is the way the hobby has become - if we could just work together there is much to be learned.

[iluv69s]

original owners have many times made errors about their cars... let's face it. It was many years ago... the original owner of one of my 67 Z's said he broke 10's in the quarter mile...

but I do not think this is the case here !!! possibly not OE, but I definitely believe it was some shade of light purple...

again jmho

[Charley Lillard]

Just a heads up to keep this civil.

[cook_dw]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Look up #81 on AutoColorLibrary.com under '69 Oldsmobile-looks very similar to EO but in reality is much lighter. Maybe that's why the owner was disappointed? </div></div>


I believe this very well could have been the case.. And whos to say GM even called to confirm the change.. They could have made the change on their own to the Sunset Silver Metallic. But again the photos of the car from the time and the photos of the car before restoration it is clearly not Cortez.

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/69paint_chart_zpsy6ertrey.jpg (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/69paint_chart_zpsy6ertrey.jpg.html)

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/DSC05713_zpsn0g3ixwh.jpg (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/DSC05713_zpsn0g3ixwh.jpg.html)

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/DSC05722_zpshbieklif.jpg (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/DSC05722_zpshbieklif.jpg.html)

[70 copo]

Ok so the owner orders Special paint in EO and somebody at the plant decides or intentionally orders the wrong paint?

Pictures fade over time and various factors come into play. The light will reflect off the car differently or car was dusty or dirty at the time of the photo. INMHO...

[70 copo]

That looks like EO on the roof to me.

[cook_dw]

Simply giving another perspective.. And as far as I know SSM may be the same as EO and it was simply a name change.. IDK..

[70 copo]

Gotcha

[William]

Nope. None of the paint we saw on that car even remotely resembled EO.

[cook_dw]

Not the greatest comparison but all I had to work with at the time..

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/paint_zpscuktiqne.jpg (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/paint_zpscuktiqne.jpg.html)

[70 copo]

Bingo... Looks like the chip.

[watk69]

I think the reason its a subject ripe for discussion is, &quot;the hobby&quot; or maybe the &quot;fluff&quot; this car has gotten now miraculously made it a 200k Camaro. Its no longer a run of the mill 60-80k restored car. It would be especially interesting to see how the body number lines up with the VIN, Can't imagine they'd break up the paint line without putting it on some kind of hold until they had the time to paint this ONE car purple.

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: watk69</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Can't imagine they'd break up the paint line without putting it on some kind of hold until they had the time to paint this ONE car purple. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith Seymore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Most assembly plants have/had a special paint system, separate from the main line, where smaller paint pots could be loaded with low production volume colors, which would minimize the amount of waste when flushing the system. Typically these were done for fleet and special equipment runs (Grand Trunk RR, RCMP, Bell Telephone, etc). We also have had some plants were the special colors were run through the paint repair line rather than the main assembly process.
</div></div>

Everything keeps right on flowing. Once the paint is loaded and the order is introduced to the production sequence they never miss a beat.

K

[cook_dw]

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/redgorillarestorations/P9160133_zpsdlft5ewb.jpg (http://s614.photobucket.com/user/redgorillarestorations/media/P9160133_zpsdlft5ewb.jpg.html)

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/redgorillarestorations/11C%20N162446%20Scholl%20Z28%209N546311_zpswtscv6c a.jpg (http://s614.photobucket.com/user/redgorillarestorations/media/11C%20N162446%20Scholl%20Z28%209N546311_zpswtscv6c a.jpg.html)

[cook_dw]

Going back and reading through some of the Team Camaro thread; I noticed that the owner at the time and the one that paid to have the inspection done asked that it be looked at again but nothing more was mentioned.. Was there nothing more that could be done?


<span style="font-weight: bold">Just to be clear I am not picking on anyone or pointing fingers.. Just simply asking questions.</span>

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/redgorillarestorations/TC%20thread_zpsuwwffmen.jpg (http://s614.photobucket.com/user/redgorillarestorations/media/TC%20thread_zpsuwwffmen.jpg.html)

[William]

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt65/JJZ109/image001_zpsa94e44a0.png (http://s598.photobucket.com/user/JJZ109/media/image001_zpsa94e44a0.png.html)

As for paint chips, don't make me laugh.

[markinnaples]

I have a hard time believing that the original owner made up a long story about how his wife wanted purple/EO and they specifically special ordered it and got it but didn't like it. What does he have to gain from all this, beside a little notoriety?

Just wondering, is EO a multiple stage paint process, like a base silver than a purple over? No idea how that color was painted, but wondered.

[cook_dw]

Just for comparison sake.

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/redgorillarestorations/paint%202_zpscotyxgti.jpg (http://s614.photobucket.com/user/redgorillarestorations/media/paint%202_zpscotyxgti.jpg.html)

[70 copo]

Lighting, angles, and dirt will change the appearance of a color in a photo.

I gotta say the roof comparison with the chip is a deal sealer.

[iluv69s]

can you put the chip of EO and cortez silver against the roof without the white borders??? id be interested to see the difference then. Looks like the pics of the car now are under fluorescent lights... any pics of the car now in outdoor lighting???

[William]

What a joke. Here's some more paint chips for you. Any of these look real?

In case you didn't notice the finish of the car as restored doesn't match the OE paint in the roof photo.

The only &quot;deal sealer&quot; is the people who actually saw the car.

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt65/JJZ109/image001_zpsd84c365c.png (http://s598.photobucket.com/user/JJZ109/media/image001_zpsd84c365c.png.html)

[70 copo]

BTW... Norwood Chevrolet side inspectors used paint chips to accept bodies from Fisher Body. Paint in smaller batches at Fisher Body was also hand measured and tinted by eye to a match with a chip.

[cook_dw]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">can you put the chip of EO and cortez silver against the roof without the white borders??? id be interested to see the difference then. Looks like the pics of the car now are under fluorescent lights... any pics of the car now in outdoor lighting??? </div></div>

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/redgorillarestorations/paint%204_zpsnyx7s0ct.jpg (http://s614.photobucket.com/user/redgorillarestorations/media/paint%204_zpsnyx7s0ct.jpg.html)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW... Norwood Chevrolet side inspectors used paint chips to accept bodies from Fisher Body. Paint in smaller batches at Fisher Body was also hand measured and tinted by eye to a match with a chip. </div></div>


&quot;What a joke..&quot; Everyone knows these were cookie cutter and built by machines..!!.. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cook_dw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">can you put the chip of EO and cortez silver against the roof without the white borders??? id be interested to see the difference then. Looks like the pics of the car now are under fluorescent lights... any pics of the car now in outdoor lighting??? </div></div>

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/redgorillarestorations/paint%204_zpsnyx7s0ct.jpg (http://s614.photobucket.com/user/redgorillarestorations/media/paint%204_zpsnyx7s0ct.jpg.html)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW... Norwood Chevrolet side inspectors used paint chips to accept bodies from Fisher Body. Paint in smaller batches at Fisher Body was also hand measured and tinted by eye to a match with a chip. </div></div>


&quot;What a joke..&quot; Everyone knows these were cookie cutter and built by machines..!!.. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif </div></div>

That was especially critical for those processes where the front clip was painted in a separate part of the plant (or in a separate plant on the other side of town) and were expected to match the body. Everything has to match the chip.

Otherwise it wouldn't matter.

K

[70 copo]

Correct on all points. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[clem]

give it up as you and jerry have been caught in a big screw up. there no one in his right mind can come up with a good reason for me to claim a color the car was not. you guys are just trying to defend the indefensible.

[m22mike]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">give it up as you and jerry have been caught in a big screw up. there no one in his right mind can come up with a good reason for me to claim a color the car was not. you guys are just trying to defend the indefensible. </div></div>


Well stated, thank you.

Mike

[bergy]

I know that at the St. Louis Assembly plant the special order paint was prepared in small pressure pots and hand trucked to the paint line. It would be pure coincidence if the small batch matched any color chip. Does someone actually think that the <span style="text-decoration: underline">PRODUCTION</span> process included spraying test panels, running them through the oven, &amp; checking them against paint chips? No way - they mixed the paint according to the formula given (which may or may not have been correct)&amp; painted the job. I don't have a dog in the hunt, but people who I respect highly evidently do. So why not just conclude that the car got painted some color that we cannot identify for certain. It could have been intended to be EO, CS, SS - who knows for sure? The owner may have ordered EO and someone at the plant messed it up. Too bad that the owner/restorer didn't get consensus before the restoration was done.

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know that at the St. Louis Assembly plant the special order paint was prepared in small pressure pots and hand trucked to the paint line. It would be pure coincidence if the small batch matched any color chip. Does someone actually think that the <span style="text-decoration: underline">PRODUCTION</span> process included spraying test panels, running them through the oven, &amp; checking them against paint chips? </div></div>

Corvette or truck?

If the Corvette front clip was painted along with the body then it certainly was less critical. But in any instance where the front end was painted remotely (like trucks) they had to match the chip. In Flint the cabs were painted at one end of the facility and front end sheet metal at the other end (and on a separate floor). Buicks bodies were built on the north side of Flint and trucked to the south side of Flint (on open carriers) for final assembly. There had to be a common verifiable standard.

The production process absolutely includes matching to chips. When we installed the Behr turbine bell system in Flint the electrostatic charge in the body took all of the metal flake particles and aligned them in a uniform pattern, changing the final effect. We had to reinstall reciprocating traditional spray guns to spray metallic paints so that they would match the chip (which wasn't an inexpensive undertaking).

K

[clem]

when the car arrived at grabiak chevy I would have known the difference between EO and silver. my wife worked there and was there when the car rolled off of the truck. there were people on the other website that said the dealer painted the car EO when it was delivered in silver. I hope people this stupid are not allowed vote in our elections.

[sYc]

The best of experts have been prone to errors. For instance, the so called L-89 Nova was inspected by a team of “experts” and though they never admitted that they may have been mislead, seems to be the case.

At times you have to weigh the facts, use common sense and see where that leads you. In this case, appears to have been a factory EO car.

Regardless, a very unique car/color.

[clem]

the problem here is they can not afford to have some dumb hunky from a coal mining town in Pa be correct.

[markinnaples]

Hey Clem, Not that it matters, but from a former Pittsburgher (South Hills - Baldwin/Whitehall/South Park) guy, I believe you.

Do you happen to have any old cars now?

[clem]

as the original owner I installed that air cleaner setup as I did also with my 68 Z/28. I did not like the looks of the cold air hood. I knew that for every 10 degrees you lower the inlet air temp you pick up 1% in HP. I ran this setup on all my high performance cars

[clem]

Mark,no I was into new corvettes but my wife passed away in jan. so I canceled my 2015 corvette order as it would be no fun without her riding next to me. we left on our honeymoon in a brand new 1959 corvette and had 10 since then. the Z/28 camaros were bought because we had children and we needed more seats.

[markinnaples]

Ugh, sorry for your loss.

[Mr70]

Jesus Christ that's an absolutely stunning looking car.How was it received by your local car cliques back then?
I believe it came EO,but for any doubters,are there any locals from your past who can vouch for that color as well?....Who could forget that color.

[Day2_69Z]

Yes....we'd love your input and stories....in sharing anything and everything you can......
Of your many performance cars, Clem.Do you have any pics, 8 mm home movies, paper work, order forms, service records, parts invoices, window stickers......related to any of them ?

I'm also from Western Pa and have travelled past Grabiak Too many times to count on my way to Keystone Raceway/Pgh Raceway Park.

Now living in Irwin. Which is only a few miles/minutes away....I've seen the transformation of Grabiak back to a Performance Store with Corvettes and especially since 2010 with the Camaro.

Since the age of 14,,,, '72-'73 - on into my early 30's we would stop at Grabiak and look at the HP cars and visit Joe at the Corvette Center.
I don't have any pics....just fuzzy memories ....,

[John]

... Clem,

Welcome to the site. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

That is a beautiful car and a great restoration.

.... and especially neat that you had it special ordered for your wife .... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes....we'd love your input and stories....in sharing anything and everything you can......
Of your many performance cars, Clem.Do you have any pics, 8 mm home movies, paper work, order forms, service records, parts invoices, window stickers......related to any of them ?

I'm also from Western Pa and have travelled past Grabiak Too many times to count on my way to Keystone Raceway/Pgh Raceway Park.

Now living in Irwin. Which is only a few miles/minutes away....I've seen the transformation of Grabiak back to a Performance Store with Corvettes and especially since 2010 with the Camaro.

Since the age of 14,,,, '72-'73 - on into my early 30's we would stop at Grabiak and look at the HP cars and visit Joe at the Corvette Center.
I don't have any pics....just fuzzy memories ...., </div></div>I sold all the paperwork for my corvettes to a collector and the fellow who has my 1970 450HP 454 chevelle also got the paper work. mrs. clem saved all that paperwork as she like to collect things. I have some pictures around here but I have no idea where they are locate. my sons race car from back in the 90s

[the427king]

&quot;but for any doubters&quot;..........Its only natural that youre going to get doubters when you are wanting 3 times what a car would be worth if it wasn't for the color.

[watk69]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;but for any doubters&quot;..........Its only natural that youre going to get doubters when you are wanting 3 times what a car would be worth if it wasn't for the color. </div></div>


Reply of the thread right there!, especially if the original owner or Brad (the restorer) or whoever else has a stake in the car seems to want 200k or better for this machine. For such a special car there should have been a lot of fanfare, ......i.e. Polaroid and Kodak Instamatic with FlashCube pics somewhere. Bows ribbons, champagne, hot dogs etc......LOL. But at the very least a sale contract with THAT color listed on it beside special paint. We, as hobbyists, want to believe in this Omega, but at 200k anyone would be a fool to pay that without it being in STONE that it came that color from the factory

If it were mine, with this cloud of doubt around it, I would have taken the 160k it bid to and ran to the bank

[bergy]

I co-op'd out of St Louis, so it was all 3 lines (trucks, full size, &amp; Corvettes). My only experience actually painting was at Corvette though, where the panels were still sprayed manually &amp; then re-flowed (thank God!). Keith - I'm sure that you are stating facts, but half of the time standard colors didn't exactly match paint chips - there was some variance over time.

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: watk69</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;but for any doubters&quot;..........Its only natural that youre going to get doubters when you are wanting 3 times what a car would be worth if it wasn't for the color. </div></div>


Reply of the thread right there!, especially if the original owner or Brad (the restorer) or whoever else has a stake in the car seems to want 200k or better for this machine. For such a special car there should have been a lot of fanfare, ......i.e. Polaroid and Kodak Instamatic with FlashCube pics somewhere. Bows ribbons, champagne, hot dogs etc......LOL. But at the very least a sale contract with THAT color listed on it beside special paint. We, as hobbyists, want to believe in this Omega, but at 200k anyone would be a fool to pay that without it being in STONE that it came that color from the factory

If it were mine, with this cloud of doubt around it, I would have taken the 160k it bid to and ran to the bank </div></div>I had at least 6 new cars,corvettes and trucks painted non standard colors and it was just a way to be different,nothing special back then. the Z/28 had the grill painted flat black and the rear panel and spoiler face was also painted black with a textured vinyl top paint. my way of personalizing my car

[MarcDant]

Why was this car inspected in the first place?. The original owner has confirmed the colour. The trim tag and dealer invoices are there. The stampings are legitimate. Yes,its an early car. Yes, I wasn't one of the detectives that inspected the car. That car is unique.I too have a -- paint car and my canadian gm docs list a 1001pa special color.The original owner confirmed the color to me as purple the original luovers from the fenders still have born with paint.I paid no attention to what some of the detectives had to say.

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"></div></div>

I co-op'd out of St Louis, so it was all 3 lines (trucks, full size, &amp; Corvettes). My only experience actually painting was at Corvette though, where the panels were still sprayed manually &amp; then re-flowed (thank God!). Keith - I'm sure that you are stating facts, but half of the time standard colors didn't exactly match paint chips - there was some variance over time. </div></div>my 62 corvette was painted from the st louis factory anniversary gold and my 65 396 was a factory delivery on april 16 1965

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marshall</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why was this car inspected in the first place?. The original owner has confirmed the colour. The trim tag and dealer invoices are there. The stampings are legitimate. Yes,its an early car. Yes, I wasn't one of the detectives that inspected the car. That car is unique.I too have a -- paint car and my canadian gm docs list a 1001pa special color.The original owner confirmed the color to me as purple the original luovers from the fenders still have born with paint.I paid no attention to what some of the detectives had to say. </div></div>the restorer found me thru the internet after the inspection by the experts. I had put the VIN numbers of my 68 and 69 Z/28 on the Camaro website and posted I had the paper work. he put the VIN in goggle and my name came up

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cook_dw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">can you put the chip of EO and cortez silver against the roof without the white borders??? id be interested to see the difference then. Looks like the pics of the car now are under fluorescent lights... any pics of the car now in outdoor lighting??? </div></div>

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/redgorillarestorations/paint%204_zpsnyx7s0ct.jpg (http://s614.photobucket.com/user/redgorillarestorations/media/paint%204_zpsnyx7s0ct.jpg.html)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW... Norwood Chevrolet side inspectors used paint chips to accept bodies from Fisher Body. Paint in smaller batches at Fisher Body was also hand measured and tinted by eye to a match with a chip. </div></div>


&quot;What a joke..&quot; Everyone knows these were cookie cutter and built by machines..!!.. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif </div></div>

Thanks.... case closed in my opinion...

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;but for any doubters&quot;..........Its only natural that youre going to get doubters when you are wanting 3 times what a car would be worth if it wasn't for the color. </div></div>

Please correct me if I am wrong but I do not think Clem has any financial stake in the sale of the car.

He has not owned the car since the 1970's...

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: watk69</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;but for any doubters&quot;..........Its only natural that youre going to get doubters when you are wanting 3 times what a car would be worth if it wasn't for the color. </div></div>


Reply of the thread right there!, especially if the original owner or Brad (the restorer) or whoever else has a stake in the car seems to want 200k or better for this machine. For such a special car there should have been a lot of fanfare, ......i.e. Polaroid and Kodak Instamatic with FlashCube pics somewhere. Bows ribbons, champagne, hot dogs etc......LOL. But at the very least a sale contract with THAT color listed on it beside special paint. We, as hobbyists, want to believe in this Omega, but at 200k anyone would be a fool to pay that without it being in STONE that it came that color from the factory

If it were mine, with this cloud of doubt around it, I would have taken the 160k it bid to and ran to the bank </div></div>



really???????? I had over 200 early Camaros in the 80's and 90's... I have very very few pics of any of them... that was not the digital age.....Did you expect a ticker tape parade back then when the car was delivered???? How about a visit from the Pope ?? If someone orders a special color Camaro in 2015 how much fanfare would there be???


I find it hard to believe the selling dealer would fabricate such a story and put it in writing.

[watk69]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: watk69</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;but for any doubters&quot;..........Its only natural that youre going to get doubters when you are wanting 3 times what a car would be worth if it wasn't for the color. </div></div>


Reply of the thread right there!, especially if the original owner or Brad (the restorer) or whoever else has a stake in the car seems to want 200k or better for this machine. For such a special car there should have been a lot of fanfare, ......i.e. Polaroid and Kodak Instamatic with FlashCube pics somewhere. Bows ribbons, champagne, hot dogs etc......LOL. But at the very least a sale contract with THAT color listed on it beside special paint. We, as hobbyists, want to believe in this Omega, but at 200k anyone would be a fool to pay that without it being in STONE that it came that color from the factory

If it were mine, with this cloud of doubt around it, I would have taken the 160k it bid to and ran to the bank </div></div>



really???????? I had over 200 early Camaros in the 80's and 90's... I have very very few pics of any of them... that was not the digital age.....Did you expect a ticker tape parade back then when the car was delivered???? How about a visit from the Pope ?? If someone orders a special color Camaro in 2015 how much fanfare would there be???


I find it hard to believe the selling dealer would fabricate such a story and put it in writing. </div></div>


I was being facetious, but sheepishly admit I took hundreds of pics of my 78 Camaro with an anemic 305, because it was my first new car I bought and paid for on my own

Just saying if there was an order or sale contract from when the car was purchased that said what color the special paint was, everyone would shut up, its the 150k question

[RLS_Jr]

Welcome Clem



Ron Starry

[Charley Lillard]

I think we have said about all that can be said. I'm not sure even if the color was spelled out on the paperwork that it would bring more money that a equally restored Z of a different color. I love the color and would love to own it but at nowhere near the asking price. First thing I would do would be remove some of the stupid &quot;happy marks&quot; on the car that every auction restorer seems to think will make more valuable.

[iluv69s]

probably time to agree to disagree...

[iluv69s]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: watk69</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: watk69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=the427king]&quot;but for any doubters&quot;..........Its only natural that youre going to get doubters when you are wanting 3 times what a car would be worth if it wasn't for the color. </div></div>


Reply of the thread right there!, especially if the original owner or Brad (the restorer) or whoever else has a stake in the car seems to want 200k or better for this machine. For such a special car there should have been a lot of fanfare, ......i.e. Polaroid and Kodak Instamatic with FlashCube pics somewhere. Bows ribbons, champagne, hot dogs etc......LOL. But at the very least a sale contract with THAT color listed on it beside special paint. We, as hobbyists, want to believe in this Omega, but at 200k anyone would be a fool to pay that without it being in STONE that it came that color from the factory

If it were mine, with this cloud of doubt around it, I would have taken the 160k it bid to and ran to the bank [/qu



really???????? I had over 200 early Camaros in the 80's and 90's... I have very very few pics of any of them... that was not the digital age.....Did you expect a ticker tape parade back then when the car was delivered???? How about a visit from the Pope ?? If someone orders a special color Camaro in 2015 how much fanfare would there be???


I find it hard to believe the selling dealer would fabricate such a story and put it in writing. </div></div>


I was being facetious, but sheepishly admit I took hundreds of pics of my 78 Camaro with an anemic 305, because it was my first new car I bought and paid for on my own

Just saying if there was an order or sale contract from when the car was purchased that said what color the special paint was, everyone would shut up, its the 150k question </div></div>


I hear ya.... I still think there may be someone else out there that knew this car when new... BTW... I postedrecently aout a triple black stripe delete 69 L-78 w paperwork... that car did have the color in the paperwork I believe... hmmmmmm

[iluv69s]

what did the Carolina blue w white stripe Z sell for??? I think it bid way more than 200k...if I recall

[watk69]

450k and the Bid Goes On. The description of that car was laughable as well.........&quot;thieves relieved of its factory trunk supplied cross ram and 8 track at a railyard&quot; &quot;Unrestored and Original except for one repaint&quot; <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/no.gif

The stories people come up with to sell a car

Carolin Blue Z (https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail/SC0514-184213/0/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-Z28/4-Speed/)

[Billohio]

Also said the JL8s were stolen on train. That's funny

[watk69]

All I know is I locked my keys in the trunk and a master locksmith said &quot;you're screwed&quot; after 2 hours trying to pick it at the Nationals this year. Glad he had a master set of ignition keys to fire it off until I got back home where the spare set was. Those 6 pin locks for the trunk are darn near pick proof

[RLS_Jr]

I know of two gentlemen that knew of this car when it was new and it was EO.



Ron Starry

[bcmiller]

Vintage pic posted does not support EO. And apparently the order does not clearly specify color.

Do those two people have pics?

[Day2_69Z]

What JL8.....?

That hideous bull shit ridden. Blue car was never a JL8.....

We underestimated the value of bragging with egocentric ,eccentric, obnoxious arrogance combined with money that makes anything real to story tellers........better yet, they believe it them selves after they hear it or read it elsewhere..

I can say something about 2 cars JM recently certified as real .......that never were ......a few years before he saw them.....and owned by the same kinda personality I stated above........
But I'll keep my mouth shut and not buy into &quot;uneducated , guru worshippers&quot;. Claims of , but he said so.....it must be real

[markjohnson]

This has become the biggest color debate since . . . well, you know:

[the427king]

CarsEdit


In 1968, Mary Kay Ash purchased the first pink Cadillac from a Dallas dealership, where it was repainted on site to match the &quot;Mountain Laurel Blush&quot; in a compact Ash carried. The Cadillac served as a mobile advertisement for the business. The following year, Ash rewarded the company's top five salespeople with similarly painted 1970 Coupe de Ville cars. GM has painted over 100,000 custom cars for Mary Kay. The specific shade has varied over the years from bubble-gum to near-white pearlescent effects. GM had an exclusive agreement to sell cars of the specific shade only through Mary Kay. The cars are offered to distributors as two-year leases, and distributors who choose to buy the cars are only allowed to resell them to authorized dealers. After the lease expires, the cars are repainted before being resold.

[bcmiller]

[quote=watk69]This is the primer on some hidden areas on the famous survivor that has been discussed for quite some time.

Hugger Survivor (http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=12083.0;all)

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b384/watk69/1969%20Z28/purple%20primer.jpg

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++

The post quoted above from earlier in the thread seemed to be overlooked or maybe misunderstood.

The pics show some areas of primer that has a &quot;purplish&quot; tint to it. This is on a Hugger Orange 69 Z28 survivor with 21,000+ miles. Full coverage paint on the body is completely different.

Now, back to the car in question. I would not expected to see full body color on the areas that are covered up by the door panels or on the top of the car. Remember, when it was painted, they knew it was going to get a black vinyl top. What I would expect to see is primer and some overspray on those areas.

Full color coverage paint on the body would be different, as in the case of the Hugger Orange car.

In my opinion, there is no way to say that the color was EO based on what was found under the door panels or under the vinyl top. Those areas likely did not get FULL paint coverage like the outside of the body did.

The 1969 GM color Flamingo Silver (Olds) / Sunset Silver (Buick) - is not the same as EO.

[watk69]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=watk69]This is the primer on some hidden areas on the famous survivor that has been discussed for quite some time.

Hugger Survivor (http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=12083.0;all)

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b384/watk69/1969%20Z28/purple%20primer.jpg

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++

The post quoted above from earlier in the thread seemed to be overlooked or maybe misunderstood.

The pics show some areas of primer that has a &quot;purplish&quot; tint to it. This is on a Hugger Orange 69 Z28 survivor with 21,000+ miles. Full coverage paint on the body is completely different.

Now, back to the car in question. I would not expected to see full body color on the areas that are covered up by the door panels or on the top of the car. Remember, when it was painted, they knew it was going to get a black vinyl top. What I would expect to see is primer and some overspray on those areas.

Full color coverage paint on the body would be different, as in the case of the Hugger Orange car.

In my opinion, there is no way to say that the color was EO based on what was found under the door panels or under the vinyl top. Those areas likely did not get FULL paint coverage like the outside of the body did.

The 1969 GM color Flamingo Silver (Olds) / Sunset Silver (Buick) - is not the same as EO.
</div></div>


Thank God there are cars out there like the Hugger Orange Survivor to keep us sane, and differentiate real from fantasy or bad recollection. Cars like this truly are worth their weight in gold to the hobby. The car that is the subject of this 16 page plus thread may be just as the original owner states it is, but still glad we have survivors to draw reference from. The hugger orange car should be renamed &quot;The Truth&quot; and in my mind one of the most valuable 69 Camaros ever. Wish I owned it

[70 copo]

So we have a ringer photo introduced to the forum here that is not from the car under discussion.

Well planned gentlemen.... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/bs.gif

Car is still EO. The lengths that a group will reach to to extract itself from a loosing debate is amazing to me.

[bkhpah]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-10-29919-100_0540_zpsmlosfy5i.jpg
Same car from different angle...

[bkhpah]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-10-29920-dsc_0119.jpg

Original paint RG with door panel and weather barrier removed. I would say it has pretty decent paint coverage, and the no doubt gray primer does take on a purplish tint http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-10-29921-dsc_0135.jpg
Same door different angle looks grey..BKH

[Day2_69Z]

Is there a suggestion here that the car in question has a full coating of grey primer on its door and maybe not EO ?
Wouldn't the EO fade into the primer more predominantly ?
I see what I believe is primer in non natural light along with alot of yellow then the metallic red.

With the doors off I see alot of DY every where except where the hinges bolt on and none but primer on the bulkhead/cowl area.

Vinyl roof cars as far as I've seen in person with the vinyl stripped off are not full body color.
They seem cut in too the molding trim area and the rest primer. Fisher has welded on the trim studs before leaving there facility.
I have not seen any definitive EO where its supposed to be on a factory paint job.

EO is metallic lacquer finish and has a definite haze per say when you see the over spray fanning out into primer.
I don't see any evidence of this in the pics posted.

I'm not saying it is or isn't EO but I don't see any other evidence to support it either..
If in fact it was a factory EO spray.... it must have been one of the worst paint jobs to come off the line in the door, door jamb area..... there's not enough paint.

Why all the yellow and in a fashion consistent with factory spray techniques of painting the body with doors and deck lid attached.

Any pics exist of the deck lid underside on or off the car ?

[70 copo]

Trim studs were put on right after major body shop activities were completed at FB.

This would have been a paint pot car with lots of human touches so I would expect many non mass production details to emerge associated with paint on this specific vehicle.

[cook_dw]

I wonder if there are any assembly plant workers that remember the car?? Would have been unique coming down the line.

[William]

It's my recollection that the trunk lid either wasn't OE or had been re-painted underneath.

We also didn't see &quot;...any definitive EO where it is supposed to be...&quot; And we actually saw the car.

[clem]

my questions to the doubters out there are. why would I tell the person who called me out of the blue about buying the car a untruth about the color ??? if the expert had not said it was silver would the color be in question?? why does experts opinion hold more influence than the original owner who looked at the car for many months in his garage vs someone who looked at it for 2 hours ??????

[bcmiller]

I would expect better coverage in the area under the door panels on a normal (not hand sprayed) RG or HO car because of the color difference between the main body color and the primer.

Not so much on a special paint car where the body color was close to the primer color.

Oh and I did not originally introduce the photos of the &quot;purplish&quot; color primer on the Hugger Orange car. Just mentioned them again because they seemed to be ignored at first and I felt they were pertinent.

Think about it...and what the preponderance of the evidence showed on the car itself.

It's a special paint car no doubt - so how much does that add value to the car? Hard to say. It may still be a one of one - but Flamingo Silver / Sunset Silver - instead of that other color that keeps getting brought up.

Flamingo Silver / Sunset Silver shows up darker or has more of a purplish tint in some paint chip books (I have more than one book) so I can see how there may have been a misunderstanding.

There is no way to go back and look at the car now to see.

[clem]

since there were only several special paint 69 Z/28 I am sure my Z/28 was the first one the experts ever saw and did not know what they were looking at.

[DW31S]

I don't have a gun in this fight, but I do have a few thoughts that might be pertinent in the discussion. Several years ago, I had an original, unrestored 9800 mile 1972 GS Conv. that I sold to the current owner of the HO Z/28 recently nicknamed &quot;The Truth&quot;. That GS was a customer factory order (not a dealer inventory order) that had 31 options including &quot;Special Paint&quot;. The car was ordered in a &quot;Riviera Only&quot; color called &quot;Dark Chestnut Poly&quot; that was a 1972 GM color, but not normally available on A-bodies. This GS was painted partially assembled ( more in a second) and had overspray everywhere! The paint was HORRENDOUS but ORIGINAL. The front clip had more overspray than the rest of the car and not surprisingly, it was NOT a perfect color match to the rest of the car. The window sticker did list &quot;Special Paint&quot; as option and the color WAS listed at the bottom, but NOT in the option list area. Knowing the front clips were painted in a different area of the plant explained the mismatched color that was not a normally used hue. Is there a chance the window sticker is available for the Z/28 being discussed here? If so, it would/should help clear up the controversy.
Another observation: Many of you know I'm in the car business and I have discovered something relating to GM's paint. 2007 and 2008 Chevy Tahoes and GMC Yukons painted Dark Blue (don't know the mix code or GM's formal name for that color) have a mismatch problem between the front clip and the rest of the vehicle. I have noticed this on many of these models.
Now why I think these thoughts are relevant:
It is a known fact that '69 Camaros were painted in two sections of the plant (proven by the hockey stick stripe being 1/2 paint-1/2 decal, and that many cars exhibit a noticeable difference in the body alignment of the fender/door match-up). I would tend to think that the car in question here would have a high percentage of the possibility of a mismatch in color between the front clip and the rest of the body due to the Special Paint applied during assembly. Those type colors, the orchids, the silvers, the light blues, basically any light color metallics are tough to match, and unless they are painted together at the same time, usually have a difference in shades. It would be quite helpful to view and scrutinize any original photos of the sides of the car. There are good supporting theories to both sides here, and both sides are considered to be experts in this field. It is tough to argue with the original owner, but I've seen some things in this business/ hobby that are &quot;unexplainable&quot;! And like the old saying goes &quot;There are usually three sides to every story; your's, mine, and somewhere in the middle is the truth&quot;.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">since there were only several special paint 69 Z/28 I am sure my Z/28 was the first one the experts ever saw and did not know what they were looking at. </div></div>

Clem,

I suspect Lillard was on the money several pages back on the thread content on this car being finished as the content is now being actively demagogued along with several straw-man arguments.

IMO...this has little to do with your old car and everything about defending things that were said on other forums about your car in the past...and accordingly I explect a thread lock here to calm the board.

For what is worth I believe you.

[68l30]

There are a few important pieces of paper, old photos, and a first owner, selling dealer remembering the car, and local history on a very interesting Z/28. I would bet 95% of everyone out there would kill to have this type of info on their car. The other 5% are just never content. What's the point of further discussion? Right, wrong or otherwise. Why continue....???? What is there to gain in beating this to death? Money? Don't spend yours if your not sure. There are many out there who are, and many that aren't. Why can't we enjoy a cool car ?

Surprised no one is debating the gloss on the rear tail panel and why the spoiler and tail pan don't match in shade... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif


BIG

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-105-29922-full_23_29842_eo.jpg

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 68l30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are a few important pieces of paper, old photos, and a first owner, selling dealer remembering the car, and local history on a very interesting Z/28. I would bet 95% of everyone out there would kill to have this type of info on their car. What's the point of further discussion? Right, wrong or otherwise why continue....???? What is there to gain in beating this to death? Money? Don't spend yours if your not comfortable. There are many out there who are, and many that aren't. Why can't we enjoy a cool car ?

BIG

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-105-29922-full_23_29842_eo.jpg
</div></div>because jerry reputation as a Camaro expert is at stake here . why do you think his buddy william keep posting he did not see any EO paint when they looked at the car ????

[KENNY PASCOE]

Well put Big Steve . This car has been drug thru the mud for no apparent reason . A classic example of a real and interesting car getting a bad rap . As far as everyones opinion on a value it comes down to what someone is willing to pay . Saw it in person this past weekend and all docs and pics of car were real and authentic . A neat car for sure ... KP

[DW31S]

If I'm seeing what I think I see, the door looks to had had blend work. Could just be the age or lighting of the photo. I almost hate to say this, but that car doesn't look like Evening Orchid IN THIS PICTURE. Not saying it isn't? But doesn't look like it IN THIS PICTURE.

[bkhpah]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-10-29923-dsc_0146.jpg
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-10-29924-dsc_0141.jpg
[img]http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-10-29925-dsc_0143.jpg[/img


This is another Grabiak - - special paint 68 Z/28 in what I believe is Omaha Orange. This one is original paint. The wheels were said to have been factory orange as well. I found no evidence to disprove that. On a side note, is there anyone that has any pictures of 1969 Camaros with purple primer? I have never seen that and I would love to see some examples...BKH

[clem]

this picture is me running a autocross at greengate mall back in the day. those are genuine real mag wheels I used to use on my corvettes

[clem]

OO that is a truck only color and mrs clem had a 76 454 caprice that was factory painted a truck only light metallic green color.

[William]

Not hardly Clem. July 28th was the 40th anniversary of my involvement with 1st gen Camaros. Bought a used '69 Z/28 from Jim King Chevrolet on that day in 1975. That's worthy of mention because I hung out there in the '60s as a kid growing up nearby. I saw plenty of Evening Orchid '65s back in the day. I know EO when I see it.

Special paint is uncommon [est. 1.5% of prod] and I have seen a number of them. Exactly why it is special can be difficult to ascertain. It can indicate stripe delete [fairly common], non-normative stripe color [know of one] or non-RPO paint color. The car in question is really rare in that it was both stripe delete and a non-RPO color. I do not at all question the car was ordered EO. Having examined the car for about two hours back in 2010 I have reason to question that's what you got. I know EO when I see it. Didn't see it.

It's not personal. You have accomplished much in your life and are well respected in the hobby.

[clem]

Surprised no one is debating the gloss on the rear tail panel and why the spoiler and tail pan don't match in shade... rolleyes. that area was painted black using a textured vinyl top paint. the grill was also painted flat black. there is another picture out there at the auto cross that you can see the flat black grill

[bcmiller]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this picture is me running a autocross at greengate mall back in the day. those are genuine real mag wheels I used to use on my corvettes </div></div>

Does the color of the car in that picture look EO to you? Be honest.

Could part of the &quot;disappointment&quot; with the color be because it was not as dark as expected?

Are there any original docs from this car from 1968 that show the name of the color ordered?

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this picture is me running a autocross at greengate mall back in the day. those are genuine real mag wheels I used to use on my corvettes </div></div>

Does the color of the car in that picture look EO to you? Be honest.

Could part of the &quot;disappointment&quot; with the color be because it was not as dark as expected?

Are there any original docs from this car from 1968 that show the name of the color ordered?

</div></div>sure does not look like cortez silver the 69 camaro color. http://www.69pace.com/paint1969cortezsilver.htm

[Stefano]

That's a Kool Picture.

[68l30]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Surprised no one is debating the gloss on the rear tail panel and why the spoiler and tail pan don't match in shade... rolleyes. that area was painted black using a textured vinyl top paint. the grill was also painted flat black. there is another picture out there at the auto cross that you can see the flat black grill </div></div>

Pretty cool stuff.. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

BIG

[Charley Lillard]

Posted by Clem.. &quot;because jerry reputation as a Camaro expert is at stake here . why do you think his buddy william keep posting he did not see any EO paint when they looked at the car ????&quot;

Clem. Jerry is not allowed on this site for other reasons. His reputation is not at stake here. I believe William is defending his position because that is what he believes he saw. My personal opinion is the car was some other color than Silver and that William missed noticing it. Joe Blow off the street would look at the pic with the mags on it and say &quot;Silver&quot;. Not unless the Orchid color is brought up do you notice the off color.

Everyone.....If we want this thread to continue it needs to stay civil.

[bcmiller]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this picture is me running a autocross at greengate mall back in the day. those are genuine real mag wheels I used to use on my corvettes </div></div>

Does the color of the car in that picture look EO to you? Be honest.

Could part of the &quot;disappointment&quot; with the color be because it was not as dark as expected?

Are there any original docs from this car from 1968 that show the name of the color ordered?

</div></div>sure does not look like cortez silver the 69 camaro color. http://www.69pace.com/paint1969cortezsilver.htm </div></div>

You didn't answer the questions...

[DW31S]

Brian, is there any evidence that the '68 Z/28 you introduced was painted, even partially so AFTER some assembly? And was that particular color one that was included in the pallet of GM colors for any model, truck or car in 1968? I ask this because of the Buick I owned that did show signs of painting OTHER than the normal process.

[bcmiller]

Omaha Orange was available multiple years and I believe normally only for truck or commercial use. Could be ordered as special paint if available that model year.

[olredalert]

----I kinda hate to post in this thread because it is getting a bit rowdy, but if we reference that original picture again, its now 46 years old. Don't you think there might be a chance that its faded or that the technology of polaroid cameras back then isn't remotely as good as what a cell phone takes today? The pic even looks faded to me. Just saying I wouldn't base anything on that picture. If the color isn't exactly EO, then it was slightly mis-mixed at the factory. Clems and the dealerships reputation are not in question here in any way.......Bill S

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Posted by Clem.. &quot;because jerry reputation as a Camaro expert is at stake here . why do you think his buddy william keep posting he did not see any EO paint when they looked at the car ????&quot;

Clem. Jerry is not allowed on this site for other reasons. His reputation is not at stake here. I believe William is defending his position because that is what he believes he saw. My personal opinion is the car was some other color than Silver and that William missed noticing it. Joe Blow off the street would look at the pic with the mags on it and say &quot;Silver&quot;. Not unless the Orchid color is brought up do you notice the off color.

Everyone.....If we want this thread to continue it needs to stay civil.

</div></div>my reputation is at stake because of jerry's and William's opinion and my reputation is important to me even if I am not a a self appointed expert on Z/28s

[Steve Shauger]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would expect better coverage in the area under the door panels on a normal (not hand sprayed) RG or HO car because of the color difference between the main body color and the primer.

Not so much on a special paint car where the body color was close to the primer color.

Oh and I did not originally introduce the photos of the &quot;purplish&quot; color primer on the Hugger Orange car. Just mentioned them again because they seemed to be ignored at first and I felt they were pertinent.

Think about it...and what the preponderance of the evidence showed on the car itself.

It's a special paint car no doubt - so how much does that add value to the car? Hard to say. It may still be a one of one - but Flamingo Silver / Sunset Silver - instead of that other color that keeps getting brought up.

Flamingo Silver / Sunset Silver shows up darker or has more of a purplish tint in some paint chip books (I have more than one book) so I can see how there may have been a misunderstanding.

There is no way to go back and look at the car now to see.
</div></div>

Bryon,

I find it odd that you chose to lock the thread on the CRG site but find the need to continue to post about it here. To me the background on why Clem ordered the car E O is interesting but that where it ends.

Color is all about personal taste, and for me this car holds no additional value. Someone else may feel different but again it's all about preference in color.

If you continue to post on this thread I think it only appropriate to unlock the CRG thread.

I believe there is enough day one information from the original owner, dealer and those familiar with the car to validate the color it was originally ordered.

[clem]

all jerry had to do was run the VIN and the would have found my post from years before as the original owner.

[PeteLeathersac]

I've shut up since posting the VIN back on Page-1 so maybe a good time to check back in?
First off, welcome aboard Clem!
Sorry for what may seem like foolishness here but it's a serious group that sometimes perseveres when others don't but also reaches solid conclusions others won't...thankfully we have this forum!

Reading all presented and resto of the car aside, being ordered EO but painted/delivered w/ the #81 Sunset color seems most plausible also helps all original pieces of the puzzle fit together?

I have 3 things I'm hoping Clem can comment on;
1 - Have you seen the car since restoration in EO and does the color seem the exact same or any lighter/darker?
2 - Is the Sales document posted THE absolute original...there was some questioning of it earlier so an O/O comment best when possible.
3 - When we get past this quagmire, I don't expect I'm the only one looking forward to hearing more about your other cars!

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this picture is me running a autocross at greengate mall back in the day. those are genuine real mag wheels I used to use on my corvettes </div></div>

Does the color of the car in that picture look EO to you? Be honest.

Could part of the &quot;disappointment&quot; with the color be because it was not as dark as expected?

Are there any original docs from this car from 1968 that show the name of the color ordered?

</div></div>sure does not look like cortez silver the 69 camaro color. http://www.69pace.com/paint1969cortezsilver.htm </div></div>

You didn't answer the questions...

</div></div>the answer is NO

[olredalert]

----Believe me Clem, I know exactly what you mean. Something similar happened to me several years ago. Maybe I should have entered &quot;to me&quot; at the end of that sentence......Bill S

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeteLeathersac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've shut up since posting the VIN back on Page-1 so maybe a good time to check back in?
First off, welcome aboard Clem!
Sorry for what may seem like foolishness here but it's a serious group that sometimes perseveres when others don't but also reaches solid conclusions others won't...thankfully we have this forum!

Reading all presented and resto of the car aside, being ordered EO but painted/delivered w/ the #81 Sunset color seems most plausible also helps all original pieces of the puzzle fit together?

I have 3 things I'm hoping Clem can comment on;
1 - Have you seen the car since restoration in EO and does the color seem the exact same or any lighter/darker?
2 - Is the Sales document posted THE absolute original...there was some questioning of it earlier so an O/O comment best when possible.
3 - When we get past this quagmire, I don't expect I'm the only one looking forward to hearing more about your other cars!

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif#1 yes I was at mecum harrisburg sat. and that is what the car looked like when I owned it. #2 yes it is the original that mrs clem saved. #3 OK
~ Pete


</div></div>

[DW31S]

I just looked at that picture again, and it is cool. However, to my eyes, it does look like it has been blended from the middle of the door into the front leading edge of the rear 1/4. It doesn't appear as Cortez Silver OR Evening Orchid in this picture. I'm thinking back to what I said about the front clip not matching.... Could it have been blended as an attempt to make it match the rest of the car? Could it be that the &quot;Special Paint&quot; was applied in a manner that didn't cover as much as a normally painted car? Could it be that when William and Jerry looked at the car, the early repaint hid the &quot;Special Paint&quot; and what they saw might have been a primer that is known to cast a &quot;silverish appearance? What if the line tried the &quot;Silver Firemist&quot; ( or whatever it was called) in an attempt to &quot;appear&quot; as the requested Evening Orchid? What if all of, or a combination of all of these possible scenarios occurred? I try to look at things rationally and in this case that is almost impossible due to the time that has passed since the car was originally painted, and then repainted and then appraised/ documented. I can't see why Clem and the dealer's representative would fabricate such a story (don't believe it WAS A FABRICATION), but with all the factors involved I really can't say if anyone is 100% right or wrong, or if any one person is maliciously telling an untruth to uphold a reputation. BIG is right that most of us would kill for the paperwork that has surfaced, but NONE of us would want the possible degrading of our car that could be associated with this car. I'm certainly not a buyer for this car, even if it wore the original paint, I don't think it is a $200,000.00 car. It is truly a shame it was ever repainted. Where is that window sticker?

[bcmiller]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paceme</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcmiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would expect better coverage in the area under the door panels on a normal (not hand sprayed) RG or HO car because of the color difference between the main body color and the primer.

Not so much on a special paint car where the body color was close to the primer color.

Oh and I did not originally introduce the photos of the &quot;purplish&quot; color primer on the Hugger Orange car. Just mentioned them again because they seemed to be ignored at first and I felt they were pertinent.

Think about it...and what the preponderance of the evidence showed on the car itself.

It's a special paint car no doubt - so how much does that add value to the car? Hard to say. It may still be a one of one - but Flamingo Silver / Sunset Silver - instead of that other color that keeps getting brought up.

Flamingo Silver / Sunset Silver shows up darker or has more of a purplish tint in some paint chip books (I have more than one book) so I can see how there may have been a misunderstanding.

There is no way to go back and look at the car now to see.
</div></div>

Bryon,

I find it odd that you chose to lock the thread on the CRG site but find the need to continue to post about it here. To me the background on why Clem ordered the car E O is interesting but that where it ends.

Color is all about personal taste, and for me this car holds no additional value. Someone else may feel different but again it's all about preference in color.

If you continue to post on this thread I think it only appropriate to unlock the CRG thread.

I believe there is enough day one information from the original owner, dealer and those familiar with the car to validate the color it was originally ordered. </div></div>

There is not enough paper documentation for me to say what the color truly was.

The thread there was locked because I felt there was some &quot;bashing&quot; going on and headed in a direction that was not productive. A prior thread had some &quot;bashing&quot; in it too and that was locked, not by me. I guess my tolerance level for that is low. I also felt that the original post was more of an &quot;advertisement&quot; for the car coming up for auction. The thread may open up again at some point, but that is not my call.

I have been very civil but can't say that for all of the posts in this thread. An alternate solution between Evening Orchid and Cortez Silver was suggested - which is what I believe the color was. I have an open mind, but it is an opinion. Everyone can have an opinion.

It's no big deal to me. This will be my last post in this thread. But I am not just Joe Blow off the street.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but &quot;if it doesn't fit, you must acquit&quot;. lol

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olredalert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">----Believe me Clem, I know exactly what you mean. Something similar happened to me several years ago. Maybe I should have entered &quot;to me&quot; at the end of that sentence......Bill S </div></div>I have a friend who went thru this with his 69 ZL-1 corvette when it did not meet what the NCRS said. it is a case of facts vs opinions. I knew what the corvette was as I worked on it when it was brand new.

[DW31S]

Do you really believe he was innocent?

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DW31S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you really believe he was innocent? </div></div>like I posted I had the ZL-1n my garage and these doubters only knew what they read in books and never saw the car when new. I know one guy who was there when it rolled off of the truck. same thing here the dealer and paperwork don't mean more than some ones opinion who never saw the car. .

[Xplantdad]

This! As I sit here with my daughter getting her dialysis done...I will offer my opinion as well.

I am blown away that there has been this many pages and posts on this car. People are expecting a polaroid picture from 40 plus years ago to be color correct now? Also, since when did the ordering dealer and the original owners word mean nothing? As was mentioned above.. People would kill to have this much documentation on their car! At this point...this has become rather foolish.

Clem, thanks for coming on here to share your thoughts on your former Z28. With all due respect to all involved, experts make mistakes. That's what happened here...



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olredalert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">----I kinda hate to post in this thread because it is getting a bit rowdy, but if we reference that original picture again, its now 46 years old. Don't you think there might be a chance that its faded or that the technology of polaroid cameras back then isn't remotely as good as what a cell phone takes today? The pic even looks faded to me. Just saying I wouldn't base anything on that picture. If the color isn't exactly EO, then it was slightly mis-mixed at the factory. Clems and the dealerships reputation are not in question here in any way.......Bill S </div></div>

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xplantdad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This! As I sit here with my daughter getting her dialysis done...I will offer my opinion as well.

I am blown away that there has been this many pages and posts on this car. People are expecting a polaroid picture from 40 plus years ago to be color correct now? Also, since when did the ordering dealer and the original owners word mean nothing? As was mentioned above.. People would kill to have this much documentation on their car! At this point...this has become rather foolish.

Clem, thanks for coming on here to share your thoughts on your former Z28. With all due respect to all involved, experts make mistakes. That's what happened here...



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olredalert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">----I kinda hate to post in this thread because it is getting a bit rowdy, but if we reference that original picture again, its now 46 years old. Don't you think there might be a chance that its faded or that the technology of polaroid cameras back then isn't remotely as good as what a cell phone takes today? The pic even looks faded to me. Just saying I wouldn't base anything on that picture. If the color isn't exactly EO, then it was slightly mis-mixed at the factory. Clems and the dealerships reputation are not in question here in any way.......Bill S </div></div> </div></div>this is what happens when the facts get in the way of opinions that have been $$$ makers for some people they shoot the messenger

[bkhpah]

I just got off the phone with the owner of what is being called &quot;the truth&quot; Camaro. The owner will have the car a MCACN this year for anyone who wants to see it. He has spent days cleaning the car, and told me there is NO purple primer on this car anywhere. ..BKH

[earntaz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xplantdad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This! As I sit here with my daughter getting her dialysis done...I will offer my opinion as well.

I am blown away that there has been this many pages and posts on this car. People are expecting a polaroid picture from 40 plus years ago to be color correct now? Also, since when did the ordering dealer and the original owners word mean nothing? As was mentioned above.. People would kill to have this much documentation on their car! At this point...this has become rather foolish.

Clem, thanks for coming on here to share your thoughts on your former Z28. With all due respect to all involved, experts make mistakes. That's what happened here...



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olredalert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">----I kinda hate to post in this thread because it is getting a bit rowdy, but if we reference that original picture again, its now 46 years old. Don't you think there might be a chance that its faded or that the technology of polaroid cameras back then isn't remotely as good as what a cell phone takes today? The pic even looks faded to me. Just saying I wouldn't base anything on that picture. If the color isn't exactly EO, then it was slightly mis-mixed at the factory. Clems and the dealerships reputation are not in question here in any way.......Bill S </div></div></div></div>

Bruce -- exactly ... as I have said in the past, that's why we put destruct buttons on missiles ... TAZ

[68l30]

To recap...

Some 40yr old paint looks Purple in recent pictures, and 40yr old pictures of Purple paint doesn't .....


BIG

[DW31S]

Clem, my &quot;Innocent&quot; comment was in response to an earlier post whose last remark was &quot;If it doesn't fit, you must acquit&quot;; not at you, sir. So, are you saying that your friend had another ZL-1 Corvette that, until this point was unknown? Please, please do tell......and fill us in on your other past cars.
I think sometimes (I'm guilty also) we believe in ourselves so much that even cold, hard evidence won't make us think otherwise. Not a bad trait to have, but being strong willed also means that verifying the truth is imperative so we can form that forged opinion.
Everyone here is fanatical about these cars, or we wouldn't be here in the first place, but NOT everything about these old cars is as easy as black or white, or right or wrong. I think down deep we all are honest people who believe we are right/correct and might need to take a step back and take a breath and count to 10.
Can't make MCACN again this year.....&quot;Won't you let me take you on a ........Sea Cruise&quot;.

[Day2_69Z]

Fluorescent light......
Sun light ... .
Incandescent light.....
And time of the day ALL SHOW DIFFERENT ON EVERY COLOR.....

46 Years of age and light on a Polaroid is not the same color as it once was......

Just saying....

[EdM]

Clem;

This whole mess is your fault. Patty wanted something closer to Plum Crazy Purple, not that pink car. If you had ordered a 1970 Plum Crazy Purple 340 6 pack Challenger we would not be having this discussion.

Ed M.

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DW31S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clem, my &quot;Innocent&quot; comment was in response to an earlier post whose last remark was &quot;If it doesn't fit, you must acquit&quot;; not at you, sir. So, are you saying that your friend had another ZL-1 Corvette that, until this point was unknown? Please, please do tell......and fill us in on your other past cars.
I think sometimes (I'm guilty also) we believe in ourselves so much that even cold, hard evidence won't make us think otherwise. Not a bad trait to have, but being strong willed also means that verifying the truth is imperative so we can form that forged opinion.
Everyone here is fanatical about these cars, or we wouldn't be here in the first place, but NOT everything about these old cars is as easy as black or white, or right or wrong. I think down deep we all are honest people who believe we are right/correct and might need to take a step back and take a breath and count to 10.
Can't make MCACN again this year.....&quot;Won't you let me take you on a ........Sea Cruise&quot;. </div></div> http://www.superchevy.com/features/1412-1969-chevrolet-corvette-stingray-the-orange-one/

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EdM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clem;

This whole mess is your fault. Patty wanted something closer to Plum Crazy Purple, not that pink car. If you had ordered a 1970 Plum Crazy Purple 340 6 pack Challenger we would not be having this discussion.

Ed M. </div></div>for some reason the car looks pink in photos but not in person.

[EdM]

I know man.

How are you holding up these days?

I continue to be amazed at the amount of questioning of &quot;original owner&quot;, plus &quot;dealer statement, plus multiple people who remember the car back in the day.

I guess you should have taken one of the fenders off of the car when it was new and stored it away. But if you had done that, someone would say it was from a different car.

Life is too short to keep fighting these battles.

Hang in there Clem.

[Day2_69Z]

Hey....
Quit using that. &quot;PINK&quot; word in reference to '69 Camaros.....

We have one...as posted here in the past.
It's gonna get a complex or Lotta Scrutiny to where a $35,000 car gets bashed, accoladed then auctioned for $150,000......
Can't deal with that.....and the silly ass Pink Car is the only known DZ , automatic &amp; A/C car to grace these pages. (Yes, transplanted)
Its already confused enough ....tri polar ..

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EdM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know man.

How are you holding up these days?

I continue to be amazed at the amount of questioning of &quot;original owner&quot;, plus &quot;dealer statement, plus multiple people who remember the car back in the day.

I guess you should have taken one of the fenders off of the car when it was new and stored it away. But if you had done that, someone would say it was from a different car.

Life is too short to keep fighting these battles.

Hang in there Clem. </div></div>I am 81 years old and this is the easiest thing I have ever done. try building engines to run the Daytona 500 along with working a real job and working 18 hours a day. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/laugh.gif

[Day2_69Z]

I am 81 years old and this is the easiest thing I have ever done. try building engines to run the Daytona 500 along with working a real job and working 18 hours a day. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/laugh.gif [/quote]

Norm Benning Jr. from Level Green ?

[clem]

I have been at this a long time. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-19514-29930-w_newsletter.jpg

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Day2_69Z</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am 81 years old and this is the easiest thing I have ever done. try building engines to run the Daytona 500 along with working a real job and working 18 hours a day. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/laugh.gif </div></div>

Norm Benning Jr. from Level Green ? [/quote]I know norm and I also knew his dad but I built for paul fess and lasky constructionhttp://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2015/08/full-19514-29931-fess_at_daytona.jpg the #82 car is who i built for

[William]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Posted by Clem.. &quot;because jerry reputation as a Camaro expert is at stake here . why do you think his buddy william keep posting he did not see any EO paint when they looked at the car ????&quot;

Clem. Jerry is not allowed on this site for other reasons. His reputation is not at stake here. I believe William is defending his position because that is what he believes he saw. My personal opinion is the car was some other color than Silver and that William missed noticing it. Joe Blow off the street would look at the pic with the mags on it and say &quot;Silver&quot;. Not unless the Orchid color is brought up do you notice the off color.

</div></div>

Not quite what happened Charlie. All we knew going into this was the car was - B paint. We saw the car late 2010. Clem was not involved at the time and we had not seen the photo. Once again after two hours of examination there was no question all we saw was silver. Only after Clem became involved did the EO claim become a factor. JM emailed me June 17, 2011 and stated: &quot;No way this is Evening Orchid.&quot; One of his neighbors growing up in Baltimore had an EO '65 Impala SS convert, 396 4-speed. It is an instantly recognizable color.

When the owner later posted photos of the car dismantled it was obvious even to me there was a slight lavender tint to the OE paint. EO is hardly 'slightly' lavender. Close up GM code #81 looks silver; from a distance the tint becomes apparent. It is nowhere near as dark as EO.

I was there. EO would have been obvious.

[markinnaples]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olredalert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">----Believe me Clem, I know exactly what you mean. Something similar happened to me several years ago. Maybe I should have entered &quot;to me&quot; at the end of that sentence......Bill S </div></div>I have a friend who went thru this with his 69 ZL-1 corvette when it did not meet what the NCRS said. it is a case of facts vs opinions. I knew what the corvette was as I worked on it when it was brand new. </div></div>

Clem, was this the orange Vette around Pgh with the Gulf Research stickers on it? If so, I remember it from several shows around Pittsburgh in the 80's.

Also, honestly everyone, with the background that Clem has with cars, how anyone can question his statements is beyond me. He's no newbie or some old guy who doesn't remember what they bought, this man has some serious credentials that cannot be dismissed. Just my opinion.

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markinnaples</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olredalert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">----Believe me Clem, I know exactly what you mean. Something similar happened to me several years ago. Maybe I should have entered &quot;to me&quot; at the end of that sentence......Bill S </div></div>I have a friend who went thru this with his 69 ZL-1 corvette when it did not meet what the NCRS said. it is a case of facts vs opinions. I knew what the corvette was as I worked on it when it was brand new. </div></div>

Clem, was this the orange Vette around Pgh with the Gulf Research stickers on it? If so, I remember it from several shows around Pittsburgh in the 80's.

Also, honestly everyone, with the background that Clem has with cars, how anyone can question his statements is beyond me. He's no newbie or some old guy who doesn't remember what they bought, this man has some serious credentials that cannot be dismissed. Just my opinion.

</div></div>yes it is

[70 copo]

I will not question Clem. On the other hand I also trust the Norwood workers too.

Others in the hobby have the same opinion?.. obviously not. We seem to be polarized beyond the ability to accomplish research and learn new things these days.

[Day2_69Z]

Clem,
We all would love to be entertained with your automotive archives of photos, stories, opinions and general commradery......
We all eat this stuff up.....
.........
I'm sure you'll enjoy the memories as well...'maybe even more ' than us here....

Go through the index.
You'll see. Subject matter here is wide open...
Any insight/input would be applauded.
Tom Martin ....yes, Joe's my Dad....&amp; still with us.

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Posted by Clem.. &quot;because jerry reputation as a Camaro expert is at stake here . why do you think his buddy william keep posting he did not see any EO paint when they looked at the car ????&quot;

Clem. Jerry is not allowed on this site for other reasons. His reputation is not at stake here. I believe William is defending his position because that is what he believes he saw. My personal opinion is the car was some other color than Silver and that William missed noticing it. Joe Blow off the street would look at the pic with the mags on it and say &quot;Silver&quot;. Not unless the Orchid color is brought up do you notice the off color.

</div></div>

Not quite what happened Charlie. All we knew going into this was the car was - B paint. We saw the car late 2010. Clem was not involved at the time and we had not seen the photo. Once again after two hours of examination there was no question all we saw was silver. Only after Clem became involved did the EO claim become a factor. JM emailed me June 17, 2011 and stated: &quot;No way this is Evening Orchid.&quot; One of his neighbors growing up in Baltimore had an EO '65 Impala SS convert, 396 4-speed. It is an instantly recognizable color.

When the owner later posted photos of the car dismantled it was obvious even to me there was a slight lavender tint to the OE paint. EO is hardly 'slightly' lavender. Close up GM code #81 looks silver; from a distance the tint becomes apparent. It is nowhere near as dark as EO.

I was there. EO would have been obvious. </div></div>when you guys looked at the car first you said it was Cortez silver with stripes delete and never said it was special paint. I am not good at going back on computers but some can bring up the original posts on www.camaro.org (http://www.camaro.org)

[PeteLeathersac]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I am not good at going back on computers but some can bring up the original posts on www.camaro.org... (http://www.camaro.org..)</div></div>


Camaro.net thread, click here...
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=207776

Thanks for your responses to my thoughts earlier Clem!
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[William]

Stripe delete IS special paint.

In the previous post I stated my thinking changed when I saw the car disassembled. GM code #81 is still silver; all we saw was silver. Both of us are quite familiar with EO having seen many original examples over the years. EO would have been immediately obvious. It obviously wasn't.

The first two photos accurately depict what was observed-silver. First photo taken 2012; second one 1970. Paint finish looks the same despite the years. EO is seen in photos #3 &amp; #4 and is not remotely close to #1 &amp; #2.


http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt65/JJZ109/image001_zpsa94e44a0.png (http://s598.photobucket.com/user/JJZ109/media/image001_zpsa94e44a0.png.html)

[novadude]

I guess I am still wondering why the original owner would have any reason to lie about the color? I can't see where he has any stake in this, so why would we have any reason not to believe him?

I can say FOR SURE that original paint 1965 EO lacquer seems to be a much lighter, more silvery hue than what you get today spraying PPG base/clear. We had my Dad's urethane base/clear EO Nova near an original paint EO car at one point, and the original paint car looked silver by comparison. Much lighter, and less purple.

[markinnaples]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: novadude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I am still wondering why the original owner would have any reason to lie about the color? I can't see where he has any stake in this, so why would we have any reason not to believe him?

I can say FOR SURE that original paint 1965 EO lacquer seems to be a much lighter, more silvery hue than what you get today spraying PPG base/clear. We had my Dad's urethane base/clear EO Nova near an original paint EO car at one point, and the original paint car looked silver by comparison. Much lighter, and less purple. </div></div>

Great post.

[Day2_69Z]

It is a light hue...OEM. E-O (Pastel )
The NASCAR 65 IMPALA pictured here is a perfect example of a &quot;mix in non lacquer&quot;. 50 years removed. That pics show a deeper darker pigment.

Clear coat in lacquer or enamel changes any color of base ....typically darkens it up.

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: novadude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I am still wondering why the original owner would have any reason to lie about the color? I can't see where he has any stake in this, so why would we have any reason not to believe him?

I can say FOR SURE that original paint 1965 EO lacquer seems to be a much lighter, more silvery hue than what you get today spraying PPG base/clear. We had my Dad's urethane base/clear EO Nova near an original paint EO car at one point, and the original paint car looked silver by comparison. Much lighter, and less purple.

</div></div>it is CYA time for the experts. if they can't get the color correct what about the other stuff on the car ???

[70 copo]

William,

Have you ever met a guy from the Fisher Body division at Norwood who sprayed out of a paint pot?

[Mr70]

Indigo colors are the most unstable colors in the paint spectrum.
Add years of sunlight,or flo lights,and so many temperature differences since then,and I could see how some may be mis-lead thinking it came silver.

[70 copo]

William,

What parts were painted EO that should not have been painted?

[William]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: novadude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I am still wondering why the original owner would have any reason to lie about the color? I can't see where he has any stake in this, so why would we have any reason not to believe him?

I can say FOR SURE that original paint 1965 EO lacquer seems to be a much lighter, more silvery hue than what you get today spraying PPG base/clear. We had my Dad's urethane base/clear EO Nova near an original paint EO car at one point, and the original paint car looked silver by comparison. Much lighter, and less purple.

</div></div>

At no time has anyone been accused of lying. As stated I do not question the car was ordered in EO. He has every reason to believe it was EO. Unlike yourself and many of the others I actually saw the original paint on this car. I have ample reason to believe it wasn't.

All this talk of bc/cc variation is bs. Were that true every car restored in bc/cc wouldn't look original.

Since I actually saw the OE paint nothing I have read here will convince me that car was EO. Feel free to continue convincing yourselves it was.

[70 copo]

In the spirit of the &quot;Hog wild race car&quot; thread lets solve this mystery shall we?

But I need William to assist first.

[70 copo]

William,

What parts were painted EO that should not have been painted?

[al8apex]

where is the popcorn icon?

&lt;insert here&gt;

cool car, great history, sad that the typical bs continues over a cool car

[sYc]

Two hours examining the car and William and Jerry missed the omission of the paint code on the trim tag (AKA special paint) and concluded that the car was Cortez Silver, which most, if not all on here agree that the car was not.

IMO, pretty much dismisses their inspection report.

[clem]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr70</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Indigo colors are the most unstable colors in the paint spectrum.
Add years of sunlight,or flo lights,and so many temperature differences since then,and I could see how some may be mis-lead thinking it came silver. </div></div>yes this true but why keep on insisting it was not EO after the original owner shows up with other people who have seen the car say it was EO. someone made a mistake but will not admit to it. all that has to be done is to say we made a mistake and the color was EO and this will be over.

[William]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sYc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two hours examining the car and William and Jerry missed the omission of the paint code on the trim tag (AKA special paint) and concluded that the car was Cortez Silver, which most, if not all on here agree that the car was not.

IMO, pretty much dismisses their inspection report.
</div></div>

Actually it pretty much dismisses your post. I mentioned the - B paint code a few days ago and it is always noted in an inspection. It was the main reason JM was called in. Since you weren't there either and have never seen the car your opinion is of no use to me.

I do not participate in CHP inspection reports.

[sYc]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sYc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two hours examining the car and William and Jerry missed the omission of the paint code on the trim tag (AKA special paint) and concluded that the car was Cortez Silver, which most, if not all on here agree that the car was not.

IMO, pretty much dismisses their inspection report.
</div></div>

Actually it pretty much dismisses your post. I mentioned the - B paint code a few days ago and it is always noted in an inspection. It was the main reason JM was called in. Since you weren't there either and have never seen the car your opinion is of no use to me.

I do not participate in CHP inspection reports. </div></div>

A. if special paint code noted, then why report it as Cortez Siver, a standard Camaro color?
B. &quot;....Jerry &amp; I spent two hours examining this car before it was restored.&quot;

[watk69]

I &quot;thought&quot; from reading this special paint &quot;--&quot; can also denote stripe delete

[70 copo]

William,

Where is the info <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

[sYc]

&quot;I do not participate in CHP inspection reports.&quot;


BTW, I find it amusing that you would hang Jerry &quot;out to dry&quot; to try and salvage your own reputation.

[70 copo]

William,

Come on I would like to make sense of this car and I believe I can but I need to know which parts were painted that you feel should not have been?

[bcmiller]

This is getting ridiculous. Do any of you read all of the posts? Do you know what &quot;special paint&quot; means?

Phil - just go find the guy that painted it. lol

Now, this really is my last post in this thread. And my last post on this site. Jeez...

[Charley Lillard]

Is this fricking beat up on William day ? !!!! He believes what he saw was Cortez Silver. That does not mean he is lying . They saw on the trim tag the - so they know it was special paint which usually on a Z28 it ends up being stripe delete. This thread is done. It has degraded to personality clashes and childish assaults.