Lenco transmission

[A12pilot]

Hey gang,

I was contacted by a guy who's a friend of a co-worker in regards to building a Ronnie Sox tribute racer. He's not sure what he wants [68 or 69 RR.... maybe a 70 Cuda] but what he does want in it is a new-gen Hemi and a Lenco 4spd. When he asked me about that transmission, it was met with a combination of the RCA dog stare and the look you do when the Victoria Secret catalog shows up....drool... smiles...gaping mouth. You know.... if you like that sort of thing. But from a technical standpoint, I got nothing. Done some research on how they work and after that, realized A: Not cheap.... and B: So freakin' cool I gotta build a car with one.

He's really only using the car for the strip, but maybe street use too. But from talking to him, its really only going to be a fun Friday night strip car. Can't wait to spend someone elses money on my addiction!!

So.... anyone have experience with them? Thanks folks!

Cheers

Dave

PS: I spelled it wrong just to show I really don't know anything about them!

[X66 714]

Years ago there was a pro street Pinto running the streets of Tucson with a blown alcohol Cleveland with a Lenco. Pretty wild for a street car. He set the pressures a little high so each shift would bark the 14-32w tires....Joe

[Damien]

Yep, lot's. Wouldn't be my first choice for the street but hey, whatever floats your guy's boat!

[Lynn]

I will reach out to a friend of mine who has been racing for years. I know he had a Lenco in a late 80's Firebird years ago. He may have a line on something.

Will let you know. That "blank stare" look you mentioned reminds me of an old Steve Martin quote:

"You know that look that women get when they are ready to have sex? ......
Yeah, me neither."

[NorCam]

I like this car's setup. Lot's of shifting from the 5:10 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfPoAUdvswQ

[ssl78]

A friend of mine has one in his hemi Duster he drives it on the street a lot and doesnt mind it. Its pretty funny when we go to cruise nights and people look inside and try to explain to who they are with what all those levers are

[ORIGLS6]

My limited understanding of the Lenco system is that they're a series of gear reduction units. Each 'up shift' is simply disengaging one of the 'reduction units'.
So, ........ if you're in high gear (all reduction units disengaged), ..... how do you downshift? Are they easily re-engaged????

[John Brown]

The easiest way to understand a Lenco is that they are a series of manually operated two speed automatic transmissions stacked one behind the other. As I recall, the original ones used Buick Dynaflow clutch frictions and plates that were forced together by a ramp affair that pushed the clutch pack together to engage the gear reduction. When the clutch pack is released, the planetary disengages and the unit goes to a straight thru 1 to 1. Supposedly you can downshift a Lenco, but not under power. I would contact Lenco for verification to be sure on that though.

https://lencoracing.com/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=17

[Mr70]

Well said John.

[EZ Nova]

Dave, I have a friend who's been running the same Lenco CS1 on the streets since the 80's. Was in his '67 'Vette and now in his '33 Willys. It's the 4 sp version. Here's the Hot Rod write up on his car, street driven and been in TORONTO traffic jams and sits there for 28/3 hours at a time.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/1304sr-aaron-pilatzke-1933-chevrolet-willys/

I have some fast, BIG HP stuff as well for my '66 Nova. 1260Hp Ex NHRA Pro Stock 498 and Pro Mod 706 with 3 stages. So we were talking and I said, "take me for a ride and let's see how this Lenco's work on the street"?

Well it's the most easiest standard trans I have seen. Easier than a M22/ST-10 or my Liberty Extreme in my car! I will break it down do you a bit as they way he told me:

We will use the 4sp set up as there all the same from 2-5 sp, just longer and added gears.

1. FURTHEST away is the "REVERSER". This is the small lever that is used for reverse and FORWARD FIRST gear. His has a "natural" detent and a forward and reverse detent. NOW with the rest of the levers pushed forward, you move the reverser forward for first or back for reverser. MUST USE CLUTCH for this operation.

NOTE: the clutch is "usually" ONLY used in 1st and reverse applications just like any other standard trans. You DO NOT need to use the clutch to up or down shift, but crawling in 1st or reverse you and "ride" the clutch, but it's the same as any other standard regardless of make or brand.

2. So now your in 1st and moving forward. Time for 2nd gear, just grab the lever and PULL. Doesn't matter if your full race/full throttle or just cruising with your son in traffic (like Aaron with the '33 does). Just when you want to shift, just pull the lever. BUT do it fast as to engage it right.

3. Time for 3rd and then 4th, same as above for second. Just grab that handle and pull. Easy Peasy gear is changed.

4. Now here is where people will get surprised, DOWNSHIFTING. Simple, just push gear forward to disengage that gear? IE while in 4th, push lever forward to disengage 4th gear cluster and now in 3rd. You CAN blip the throttle to bring up the revs, or the downshift will do it for you, actually make now difference he says.

Now we were cruising along in 4th and coming to a light. Now some will downshift a gear at a time, OR you can just push 2nd, 3rd and 4th levers all at once and be in first. That's up to the driver, but it will drastically increase the RPM's. BUT if you know you're going to be still stopped for a bit, you can push all the levers forward with clutch engaged, and would be the same as any other trans that in 1st gear rolling up to a light with the clutch in.

Now I bought a CS1 that was behind my Fulton 706 with 3 stages for the street after seeing how easy it was to drive one on the street. I might use my Donavan (like Bruno) converter drive on the Lenco as to not have clutches to adjust all the time. But it was honestly like driving a manual valve body auto once the car was rolling, SIMPLE. And the clutch operation while in 1st or reverse is no different than any other standard trans? But the thing is bulletproof and can handle ALL the power. So it becomes a piece of mind know that the trans is basically taken out of the equation as far and longevity is concerned.

I bought mine from the Pro Mod guy I got the motor off. COMPLETE from flywheel to yoke, including bell, aluminum flywheel and 2 dics RAM clutch for $8,500.00 CANADIAN. Or about the cost of a good strong auto. But I certainly feel that the reliability is far better with the Lenco then an auto. Now the "cool-factor" of a 706 3 stage streetcar with a Lenco, well that's just PRICELESS.

Hope that gives you some insight.

[A12pilot]

Hey EZ.....just about everything I wanted to know! I've watched some videos and what you say, I now see, and it's all coming together on how this this works and you operate it! Man.....now I want one!!:drool:

Good job to all the replies, and thanks much......great info!!!:burnout:

Cheers

Dave

[bwag]

1 quirk of the Lenco is a lack of any neutral in the trans, so there has to be a prop of some sort used between the seat frame and the clutch pedal to hold the clutch to the floor when not driving , tuning etc. We ran a Lenco in our Pro Stock Vega and then installed into a Monza Pro for the 76-77 season.

[DW31S]

I heard you needed some type of externally mounted pump to keep the fluid cool on street use. The was a guy with a FAST '55 years ago that ran a Lenco on the street and he rigged up a pump made from an alternator and had a belt drive and pulley attached to one end of the driveshaft. I run a Jerico and a Long Shifter in my little Olds and can tell you, shifting gears rivals good sex for the amount of enjoyment!

[EZ Nova]

Umm I'm not 100% but I am 98% sure that Aaron with the 33 Willys does NOT have a external pump and for sure I thought you it has a neutral? The short lever of the reversed was vertical when we got in, he showed me forward was forward and back was reverse???? Maybe he machined up something at the shop for the neutral????

[jerry j]

In the early 1970's there was no neutral after about 1974 they all have neutral on the reverser.

[EZ Nova]

Was at Empire Dragway in New York yesterday, watching the Street Outlaws guys and Andy Jensen.

Andy has a gorgeous Turbo BBc `66 Nova streetcar with a 4 sp Lenco. It has neutral, BUT he is doing like what I thought, and using the converter drive and NOT a clutch. We talked over the car for a while and I asked a few questions that caught him off guard. The one he actually got up, watched over to me and shook my hand and said `no one has ever asked or mentioned that, VERY observant`.

[RobR]

What question caught him off guard?

[EZ Nova]

Just something that I noticed was missing with his car! Like i said to him, "it's the little details that get ya, isn't it".

[Peter426]

Steve Lisk’s Challenger

It’s impossible to identify the exact moment when the Pro Street trend rumbled into existence-that’s an exercise in onion peeling. But there was one trendsetter that, in the late ’70s, helped to illuminate the path that so many others would follow: Steve Lisk’s ’71 Challenger. The Lisk Challenger represents the go side of the trend that would become known as Pro Street. A teenager just out of high school at the time, Steve built his E-Body, originally a 383 slug, into Detroit’s baddest street racer with the help of his employer, Pro Stock builder/driver Mike Fons. The Challenger’s 426 Hemi and chassis setup were based on the Motown Missile’s combination. So naturally, at one point his boss told him that what he really needed to go fast was a Lenco clutchless transmission. “Sure,” he remembers saying. “What’s a Lenco?” Steve sold his motorcycle to gather up the three grand required to buy the used race tranny.

https://image.ibb.co/mUusZa/Steve_Lisk.jpg

With an additional quart of oil for cooling, Steve really did drive his Challenger on the street with the Lenco-and also with wheelie bars, twin Holley Dominators on a hogged-out and welded Weiand Hi-Ram, and a set of 14×32 No. 9 Firestone drag slicks. In 1976, that was well over the top-the car was essentially a 3,500-pound Pro Stocker. Capable of 9.60s, the Challenger had only one viable opponent in the Motor City’s wicked street racing scene, Joe Ruggirello’s Mustang II (left). (According to Steve, he bested the Mustang three out of four.) Having run out of victims to beat up on, Steve sold the car a few years later. After going through a succession of owners around the country, the Mopar was purchased 18 years ago by Randy Carron of Milford, Michigan-only a few miles from the mean streets it once ruled. The original 426 Hemi with the trick factory pieces is long gone, and the Lenco has been replaced by a 727, but otherwise the Challenger is pretty much as it was back then. -Bill McGuire

https://image.ibb.co/hy4sZa/Steve_Lisk_s_Challenger_today.jpg

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1009-hot-rods-past-feature-cover-cars/

[SS427]

I would most assuredly agree that this particular car was what likely started the whole Pro Street movement. I remember it like it was yesterday and the excitement around it. You could watch the new additions to the sport being built daily. It was definitely a great time to be young. The Silver Bullet was I believe just as fast but did not resemble the Pro Stock cars like this one did.

[Dave Rifkin]

Another car that was very cool back then was a 1969 Camaro dressed to look like a Z28 but, it had a bad ass big block and I think it also ran a Lenco. It was owned by a guy named Scott Brown and I think there was an article in Hot Rod or Car Craft where he and Steve Lisk were supposed to race for big bucks. Not sure if the race ever went down or not.

Another cool car from back in the day was a Mustang II built by Jack Roush for a guy named Joe R (won't even try to spell his name). It was called Sudden Death and ran a twin turbo 429. It has recently been lovingly restored to as raced condition and is stunning.

[SS427]

If memory serves me right the Camaro was green. I also remember the Mustang being a late 70's or early 80's dark colored fast back. Don't remember the twin turbo but do remember the 429. Good times.

[X66 714]

Joe Ruggirello is the name you were thinking of. Had one of the new Mustang II fastbacks. The story back then was Joe took the Mustang to G&R & they had a 505 match race motor on the floor. It was said that Joe said I want that in there & left them a check. Don't know what the truth was.
Scott's Camaro looked to be a 1969 Z/28 RS. It was orange with black stripes & black vinyl top...Joe

[Dave Rifkin]

Joe Ruggirello is the name you were thinking of. Had one of the new Mustang II fastbacks. The story back then was Joe took the Mustang to G&R & they had a 505 match race motor on the floor. It was said that Joe said I want that in there & left them a check. Don't know what the truth was.
Scott's Camaro looked to be a 1969 Z/28 RS. It was orange with black stripes & black vinyl top...Joe

That's right about both cars. The G&R Mustang wound up at the Atlantic Car auction some years ago and was white with blue stripes; looked kind of rough. A gentleman bought it (not at the auction) and has restored it to outstanding condition; he has shared some pictures of it since completion.

[Peter426]

Another car that was very cool back then was a 1969 Camaro dressed to look like a Z28 but, it had a bad ass big block and I think it also ran a Lenco. It was owned by a guy named Scott Brown and I think there was an article in Hot Rod or Car Craft where he and Steve Lisk were supposed to race for big bucks. Not sure if the race ever went down or not.

I remember that article. It was in Car Craft magazine circa 1978 (?). Yep, bad-ass big block with a Lenco transmission.

[Peter426]

Joe Ruggirello is the name you were thinking of. Had one of the new Mustang II fastbacks. The story back then was Joe took the Mustang to G&R & they had a 505 match race motor on the floor. It was said that Joe said I want that in there & left them a check. Don't know what the truth was.

"April 1977 Back In The Late '70s, Joe Ruggirello Commissioned Jack Roush (shown) To Convert His Mother's '75 Mustang II Into The Fastest Ford In The Detroit Area. Roush Pro Stocked The Suspension And Shoe Horned In A 505 Inch Cobra Jet. Mustang Joe's Stealthy 'Stang Produced A 140 Mph Timeslip At Milan Dragway."

https://image.ibb.co/fspDQF/hrdp_0801_04_z_top_100_hot_rods.jpg

https://image.ibb.co/cUsKXv/Roush_Driving_SD1977.jpg

https://image.ibb.co/gnQpXv/hrdp_1009_04_o_hot_rods_past_feature_cover_cars_19 75_ford_mustang_II.jpg

[Peter426]

That's right about both cars. The G&R Mustang wound up at the Atlantic Car auction some years ago and was white with blue stripes; looked kind of rough. A gentleman bought it (not at the auction) and has restored it to outstanding condition; he has shared some pictures of it since completion.

Ruggirello/Roush Mustang II

“This is the horse that ate the rat, that smoked the cat, that gobbled the goat. It came from the house that Gapp ‘n’ Jack Built.” Those were the words in the subtitle of Gray Baskerville’s story on this car in the Apr. ’77 issue of HRM. Sudden Death, the infamous Jack Roush and Wayne Gapp-built, Joe Ruggirello-owned ’75 Mustang II, also made the Top 100 Most Influential Hot Rods of All Time list in the Jan. ’08 issue. As mentioned in the bit on Steve Lisk’s Challenger (next page), this badass little car was a fierce fighter on the streets of Detroit and packed a 505ci big-block-huge for the time.

Nobody seemed to know what happened to it, even Jack Roush, until we were contacted by current owner Tom Tate, who saw the car at a Fun Ford Weekend show in 1995 with a “For Sale” sign in the window, but the owner was nowhere to be found. He instantly recognized it as the Ruggirello/Roush Sudden Death Mustang II that had burned such a vivid imprint on his teenage mind nearly 20 years prior, even though it was now painted white with blue stripes. The car disappeared after Tom walked away, and though he always kept an eye out for it, it didn’t appear until January 2010, when it popped up on eBay. Tom quickly leaped at it."

https://image.ibb.co/iGLWCv/hrdp_1009_03_o_hot_rods_past_feature_cover_cars_19 75_ford_mustang_II.jpg

"It's The Same 505 Inch Roush Engine, But A Previous Owner Stuck Turbos On It. We're Sure It's Wicked Evil But Not Original, So They're Coming Off."

https://image.ibb.co/fork5F/hrdp_1009_05_o_hot_rods_past_feature_cover_cars_50 5_inch_roush_engine.jpg

[Peter426]

https://image.ibb.co/cep8sv/Pre_Challenger.jpg

"September 1977 Woodward Avenue Wasn't The Place To Be Back In 1977. The Hot Spots Were The Deserted Roads In And Around Detroit, Where Cars Such As Steve Lisk's '71 Dodge Challenger Had At It With The Likes Of Joe Ruggirello's '75 Mustang II And George Tassos' Feather Light '69 Corvette. Thanks To His Booth Arons Hemi And Three Speed Lenco, Lisk's High Nine Times Were Hard To Beat."

https://image.ibb.co/iqyeza/Steve_Lisk_s_Dodge_Challenger_02.jpg

https://image.ibb.co/bYemea/hrdp_0912_12_70s_and_80s_musclecars.jpg

https://image.ibb.co/evcHkF/hrdp_9807_11_o_outlaw_street_cars_then_and_now.jpg

[Peter426]

"November 1979 With A Rare Exception, The Cars We Rod Tested Were Built For Or By Their Owners. Lou Mancini's '68 Dodge Hemi Dart Was One Of 72 Hand Built A Bodied Cars Produced By Hurst Performance In Detroit. Like Mancini Said, "It's A Nice Box With A Hemi Thrown In It.""

https://image.ibb.co/fDsiQF/Lou_Mancini_s_Hemi_Dart.jpg

[SS427]

speaking of Lencos......

[DW31S]

I'll agree with the Lisk Dodge, The Silver Bullet, and the Roush-built Mustang, but please don't start throwing Dobbertin's cars or Matt Hays' Ciera in the mix. Not that Dobbertin's cars weren't highly detailed and shined like an uncirculated penny; and not the Hays' Ciera wasn't an over-the-top build of a then-new car, but in my opinion, those builds started what turned into "Pro Fairground" and barely ran on eight cylinders much less ran close to eight seconds. All the chrome, candy paints and tweed interiors did was spawn a generation of slow and overcarbed money-pits that sold magazines.

[John Brown]

Amen !!

[RichSchmidt]

Back to the original post,it would seem that a Lenco would be more driveable on the street that a traditional 4 speed that was made clutchless using face plated gears. Most nightmare stories of clutchless transmissions on the street were probably from people trying to run face plated stick transmissions rather than Lencos. Without going into the specifics of what a face plated trans is I will just say that they were impossible to keep in gear because every time you let off the gas the trans popped out of gear and they weren't truly synchonized transmissions so they took skill to downshift.

[L78_Nova]

Back to the original post,it would seem that a Lenco would be more driveable on the street that a traditional 4 speed that was made clutchless using face plated gears. Most nightmare stories of clutchless transmissions on the street were probably from people trying to run face plated stick transmissions rather than Lencos. Without going into the specifics of what a face plated trans is I will just say that they were impossible to keep in gear because every time you let off the gas the trans popped out of gear and they weren't truly synchonized transmissions so they took skill to downshift.


Faceplating can be done either way... Clutchless (will drop out of gear on deceleration) or.... Clutch assist style where the dogs are back cut to hold in gear.
A clutch assist style faceplated box can be easily driven on the street by rev-matching and/or double clutching. But they are clunky so not for everyone.
And takes a bit of a learning curve for getting the hang of it. Full throttle powershifts with a tap of the clutch are instant and BIG FUN!

I run a Liberty faceplated TKO 600 in a 72 mini tubbed Nova (runs mid 11's).
Gary

[EZ Nova]

OK glad we're talking about Lenco's again. My buddy runs a Pro-Shifted hemi box behind his 500 inch B1 1970 Cuda. It's ok but does take a lot more work.

The best advantage of the street driven lenco is the fact of reliability! There is far less of a chance of hurting a Lenco the AND standard box, Liberty and Jerico included. Add that to the fact that the cost of a good used CS1 is usually less than a new trans that can take the power.

The ONLY downfall I have found/seen is there heavy and the multi stick shifter takes up a lot of space.

[A12pilot]

Great info on this guys. I know one thing....they sure aren't exactly cheap! :blush: But then again, if it was, I'm sure it'd break on the first pass. Now what about sourcing the bellhousing for a Mopar? I haven't contacted Lenco directly yet, but just curious. Thanks again!!

Cheers

Dave

[Tig65gs]

I have a lenco st1200 behind a big block with an 871. The st1200 is the street box lenco came out with and it was made so you could down shift the trans on the street easier. It was designed to handle 1200 horsepower. Jeffco is another trans that was also designed to be downshifted easier for street use and it designed to handle 2500'horsepower. The down fall to the jeffco is there is a limited number of ratios to choose from. It definitely is alot of fun on the street. When downshifting you have to raise the rpm slowly for the trans to catch up to the motor like a high stall converter,if not you will break parts. When you shift it ,you know it, it hits pretty hard. Hopecthis helps some,good luck. Tig

[Tig65gs]

If you go to the lenco site they have the whole explanation of how it works. They are great people to deal with also.