ZL1 Corvette at Auction Next Month.

[427.060]

This should be interesting. I just saw that one of the 1969 ZL1 Corvettes will be sold by Sotheby's next month. They are estimating it will bring $3m. I think that is way low.
James


https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/this-one-of-two-1969-zl1-is-the-holy-grail-of-corvettes-could-sell-for-3m/ar-AA15zWVD?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=916e3b35caa346e3b4f694bec6b4a129

[Lee Stewart]

If it was the Yellow one or the White one I would agree with you. Being it's the Orange one I don't think it will make the $3M mark.

[William]

The consignor did his homework. Tank sticker and Bloomington Gold. Ownership history since new.

[L72copocamaro]

It will be interesting to see if the money is still as strong as it has been in the last couple years. Based on recent auctions, I'd say it isn't. But, you also have to factor that cream always rises to the top.

[olredalert]

----I know there are doubters about the ZL1 part of this car, but personally I am a believer! Wouldn't hazard a guess on money, but I believe there's more than one person that will step up to the plate on this one!.....Bill S

[1967 4K]

I thought they’re were only two ZL1 Vettes made. What’s the story on this one?

[Tracker1]

I thought they’re were only two ZL1 Vettes made. What’s the story on this one?

The Maher car. It has two sets of documents, one of them might be real. The other set of papers has issues. Read this thread:

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=147328&highlight=corvette

[GMC_Typhoon]

Didn't somebody post a document from the engine plant that said there were two ZL-1 motors made for Corvettes?

[olredalert]

Didn't somebody post a document from the engine plant that said there were two ZL-1 motors made for Corvettes?

----No, I believe there were five although they didn't all get used!....Bill S

[William]

From the late Fran Preve, engineer at the Tonawanda Engine Plant.

Corvette ZL-1/manual ME code 80 produced
Corvette ZL-1/auto MG code 14 produced

http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml

[rynoshark]

Over the last few 3-4 years, a trove of significant documents were discovered in GM's Heritage Center on the ZL1 development program and RPO ZL1 production. These completely changed the discussions on 1969 Corvette ZL1 and clarified many things due to new facts being uncovered.

There were only two RPO ZL1s, as confirmed by Corvette records. There MAY have been other Corvettes with a ZL1 engine that escaped the factory somehow, but only two RPO ZL1s (thus sometimes you hear about "more" than 2 ZL1s from the factory...which there may have been, but there were only 2 RPO ZL1s). The first RPO ZL1 was confirmed in Corvette/GM paperwork at the Heritage Center as having been built on December 9, 1968 when parts were first used (ZL1 alu engine, ZL1 console badge). The document timelines appear to indicate the first RPO ZL1 was built with an M40. The second RPO ZL1 (Daytona Yellow) is well documented, so we know exactly the bookend period for the entire RPO ZL1 production. Even more important, we know that any early RPO ZL1s built in 1968 had to be built with closed chamber heads, as per GM documentation.

Important information from other threads on CorvetteForum, Yenko, and Supercar Registry:

---
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c3-general/3912713-1969-zl1-production-9.html#post1602874168

The great news for us Corvette enthusiasts and historians is that a number of documents related directly to development and production of the L88 and ZL1 have been uncovered within GM's Heritage Center. These were created by Chevrolet executives in 1968 and 1969, with exact dates, and paint a fairly clear picture of the timeline for ZL1 production. Many myths, hearsay and foggy memories have been passed down for decades, much of which is not backed up by actual facts or data (and, in some cases, are at odds with GM records).

Summary of key findings:
* per November 21, 1968 memo the L88 variants (including ZL1) were to be built ONLY with closed-chamber heads, effective November 26, 1968, until the open-chamber head was available (which is also noted on this document as not until late March 1969) [Notice of Production Change C69-299]
* on December 9, 1968 the "427 CUBIC INCHES ZL1” console badge (part 3958746) released and was first available on that date in St Louis for installation in production cars [Notice of Production Change C69-39]
* on December 9, 1968, the M40 automatic transmission parts released and was first available in St Louis on that date for production of the RPO ZL1 option [Notice of Production Change C69-39, Supplement 1]
* on or within days of December 9 1968, the first RPO ZL1 rolled off the St Louis plant assembly line [Notice of Production Change C69-39, Supplement 1]
* on August 1, 1969 the RPO option ZL1 was officially cancelled for the 1970 model year, and the aluminum ZL1 engine would only be offered as a service assembly [Corvette Engineering Center memo]

---
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c3-general/3912713-1969-zl1-production-9.html#post1602871908

Per annotations on Chevrolet's internal NPC "Notice of Production Change C69-39" documentation, the first date that a ZL1 engine assembly was available for production installation at the St. Louis Corvette assembly plant for a Corvette with option RPO ZL1 was December 9, 1968.

Further, the separate internal Chevrolet document "Notice of Production Change C69-39, Supplement 1" indicates with annotations that the first day parts were available for building a Corvette with a M40 automatic option for RPO ZL1 was also December 9, 1968.

In the absence of any other internal Chevrolet documentation, the data from these NPC documents indicate it appears that on—or within days—of December 9th, 1968 the first Corvette with option "RPO ZL1" was built. Further, based on this documentation, any Corvette built prior to that date which may have had an aluminum ZL1 type engine installed would not have been with the "RPO ZL1" option code. Given the Daytona Yellow ZL1 is well documented to have been built in September 1969, these would be the two bookend RPO ZL1s.

---
https://www.yenko.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1575146&postcount=41

The internal GM documents indicated that "12-9-68" was the first "parts availability" date for an RPO ZL1 engine available at St. Louis plant for installation into a production Corvette. From what I understand, GM did not leave rare engines sitting around to be installed sometime well into the future, thus these documents seem to indicate the first RPO ZL1 was built on or slightly after 12/9/1968 given documentation shows that the Daytona Yellow ZL1 was definitely a RPO ZL1 and it was built in September 1969.

An additional important discovery in internal GM documents found at GM Heritage Center was that the type L88-engines were actually built with closed-chamber, despite the original CEC engineering plan for them to be open chamber (which was what appeared in various magazines in period). However, a "Stop Order" was placed on the open-chamber L88/ZL1 engine due to problems with the aluminum cylinder heads, which extended the closed-chamber models (including IT L88) for the 1969 model year way beyond the original engineering timeline. I don't have the data in front of me, but I believe this stop order was lifted sometime in the March 1969 timeframe, likely coinciding with the Camaro ZL1 engines released for "production" COPO 9050 Camaros starting with chassis #3. The first two "red hot" COPO Camaro ZL1s were requested by Pete Estes to ship out by December 31, 1968, for homologation/racing purposes and were not "customer" cars. As this was a production engine reliability issue for the ZL1, the lifting an engine stop order would probably have applied to Corvettes and Camaros at roughly the same time.

[Charley Lillard]

So one RPO ZL1 is yellow. What color is the second one ?

[Lee Stewart]

https://i.postimg.cc/FRRQXhyQ/1969-corvette-production.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[olredalert]

So one RPO ZL1 is yellow. What color is the second one ?

----If we go with the M40 trans theory (it seems correct) then the other ZL1 would have to be Monaco Orange as it is an automatic and the white ZL1 is an M22 car! Casts some doubt on that Corvette for sure!....Bill S

[rynoshark]

----If we go with the M40 trans theory (it seems correct) then the other ZL1 would have to be Monaco Orange as it is an automatic and the white ZL1 is an M22 car! Casts some doubt on that Corvette for sure!....Bill S

Any car built before December 9th, 1968 could not be an "RPO ZL1" per GM records (additionally, there are similar records on cutoffs for order placements before certain dates not able to select RPO ZL1 as an option). Now, could a Corvette fitted with a ZL1 engine somehow escape the factory before then? That is certainly possible, but it would not have been ordered or built as an RPO ZL1. Any early RPO ZL1 would also need to have to be built with the correct heads based on the NPC production change specifications effective the date it was built.

[olredalert]

Any car built before December 9th, 1968 could not be an "RPO ZL1" per GM records (additionally, there are similar records on cutoffs for order placements before certain dates not able to select RPO ZL1 as an option). Now, could a Corvette fitted with a ZL1 engine somehow escape the factory before then? That is certainly possible, but it would not have been ordered or built as an RPO ZL1. Any early RPO ZL1 would also need to have to be built with the correct heads based on the NPC production change specifications effective the date it was built.

----Thanks! I've seen the dates for the Monaco Orange car, but don't have them in front of me, but I am interested in the dates for it as far as the production window is concerned!.....Bill S

[Big Block Bill]

I talked to the owner of the Monaco Orange M-40 car at MCACN back in 2018? when he showed it and had paperwork to prove it was an original produced ZL-1 making it (3) total. The Yellow 4 speed Coupe, the White 4 speed Coupe, and now this Orange Automatic Roadster. Is it everyone's belief the Orange Cars paperwork is not genuine? This debate seems to have been going on a LONG time with no concrete answer. I would like to know what everyone on the Yenko.net site thinks. Sure would be cool if it was REAL.

Bill

[Tracker1]

I talked to the owner of the Monaco Orange M-40 car at MCACN back in 2018? when he showed it and had paperwork to prove it was an original produced ZL-1 making it (3) total. The Yellow 4 speed Coupe, the White 4 speed Coupe, and now this Orange Automatic Roadster. Is it everyone's belief the Orange Cars paperwork is not genuine? This debate seems to have been going on a LONG time with no concrete answer. I would like to know what everyone on the Yenko.net site thinks. Sure would be cool if it was REAL.

Bill

Did he explain why there are two sets of nearly identical documents , one with a font that would not be printable on any printer or typewriter available in 1969? Perhaps it was done for display purposes only while the original was securely home in a safe? That is certainly plausible.

Also why does his tank sticker say RPO ZL1 when the yellow Judski car says RPO L88 then farther down ZL1 ALUMINUM CYLINDER BLOCK? These are the questions that I have around the docs for the orange car that I don't have answers for.

[DarrenX33]

When I see this topic come up I always think of this old post from way back when where Larry (Pantera) commented about seeing a blue ZL1 back then.

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=78499&highlight=corvette

[useless tony]

If I understand all this and can do the math, we have two stick cars ... one yellow one white, an orange auto and an undetermined trans blue car. All legit ZL1 Vettes. :dunno:

[Keith Seymore]

I went to GMI with a young man named Kris Heberling.

His dad was George Heberling who, at one time, was the Assistant Staff Engineer of the engineering/assembly liaison group for the St Louis plant.

He drove one of the ZL1 Corvettes as his assigned company owned vehicle.

K

[1903USMCUnertl]

I went to GMI with a young man named Kris Heberling.

His dad was George Heberling who, at one time, was the Assistant Staff Engineer of the engineering/assembly liaison group for the St Louis plant.

He drove one of the ZL1 Corvettes as his assigned company owned vehicle.

K


Did he possibly drive the yellow car, which was retailed through Hechler? My understanding is the car was originally an engineer's demo and then was released for sale. I seem to remember seeing a Chevrolet memo asking if any dealers were interested in the car, highlighting this as well.

[EZ Nova]

What about the white Dontov convert used at the testing grounds with another dark ZL1???

[Tracker1]

What about the white Dontov convert used at the testing grounds with another dark ZL1???

Mocked up hot rods, test mules, for the press corps. Built under the eye of GM engineer Gib Hufstader for the long-lead press preview. Long ago crushed/dismantled.

[Tracker1]

If I understand all this and can do the math, we have two stick cars ... one yellow one white, an orange auto and an undetermined trans blue car. All legit ZL1 Vettes. :dunno:

The blue car is a hearsay unicorn and shouldn't be included in the discussion of these three other cars.

[EZ Nova]

The blue car is a hearsay unicorn and shouldn't be included in the discussion of these three other cars.

Why is that? Was it the late Larry Clain RIP that said there was a Blue 69 ZL1 that he saw NEW with the window sticker in the spring of 69? Was in the 69 ZL1 Vette thread.

[olredalert]

----Sadly, we can't dig into Larry's statements. One thing I'm sure of is that at the very least, he thought he saw what he saw. I didn't know Larry (wish I had!) but he seemed a very principled guy. Unfortunately, there are way too few ways to verify his statements, so it seems prudent to not put too much stock in his thoughts on the current situation with a blue car, with 2 or 3 or whatever number of ZL1 Corvettes were 'RPO delivered" 69 ZL1 Corvettes. It's a very confusing situation at this time because there are 3 (at the moment) cars purported to be ZL1 Corvettes and seemingly only two RPO ZL1's. We will see what comes out of this auction of an absolutely cool Monaco Orange ZL1 Corvette.....Bill S

[muscle_collector]

larry was a real deal guy. i bought the ZL1 engine out of the blue car after it was destroyed in an accident.

[luzl78]

larry was a real deal guy. i bought the ZL1 engine out of the blue car after it was destroyed in an accident.

Does it have a vin on it?

[L72copocamaro]

So the ZL1 Corvette bookends are 12/68 - 9/69 with no possibility of any others built in between?

[lycan]

So the Corvette bookends are 12/68 - 9/69 with no possibility of any others built in between?
Correct.


GM records clearly show that only two (2) RPO ZL-1 Corvettes were built.

[Tracker1]

Does it have a vin on it?

Refer to the other thread included in this thread as a link

He did not get the VIN.

[luzl78]

Refer to the other thread included in this thread as a link

He did not get the VIN.

I only ask cause muscle collector said he had the original zl1

[Xplantdad]

When I see this topic come up I always think of this old post from way back when where Larry (Pantera) commented about seeing a blue ZL1 back then.

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=78499&highlight=corvette




I miss Larry!

[Tracker1]

I only ask cause muscle collector said he had the original zl1



Posts #33 to #37 in this thread. musclecollector said he had the VIN back then but (rightly) had no plans to post it. Don't know if he ever found it again. Obviously if that block could be found with a Corvette VIN - stamped at the factory - it is a VERY VERY significant block. But it's in the wind, and thus, a unicorn.

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=147328&highlight=corvette

[Luvchevs]

It will be interesting to see if people are prepared to pay the big $$$ for this car.

[Luvchevs]

Who is the current owner of this vehicle?

[luzl78]

It will be interesting to see if people are prepared to pay the big $$$ for this car.

1.5-2 million

[Keith Seymore]

Did he possibly drive the yellow car, which was retailed through Hechler? My understanding is the car was originally an engineer's demo and then was released for sale. I seem to remember seeing a Chevrolet memo asking if any dealers were interested in the car, highlighting this as well.

Yes - it was the yellow car. In fact, he ordered it, followed it through the build, then drove it.

The guy sitting on my desk is saying it was somewhat of a pilot car and therefore probably the first built.

Apparently the hood stripe was painted in the repair area of the plant and was such a bear to do that they only did just the one.

K

[Tenney]

Apparently the hood stripe was painted in the repair area of the plant and was such a bear to do that they only did just the one.

K

And so the striper, in an act of civil disobedience, declined to do two ...

[mrays]

It looks like this car sold for $3,140,000 yesterday at the RM Sotheby's auction. It hammered for $2,850,000 and was $3,140,000 with fees. Does anybody know who purchased it? I haven't found any video of the auction yet.

[Bill Pritchard]

Wow.