Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly enough, you are probably correct on that interpretation.

I like the "no walk in customers please" on their website. I wonder if they have a drive up window? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I found (was contacted) my first car (69 Camaro 307/3spd)from High School recently in a junk yard. It is rusty and toast. BUT, hey it was my first car. First time I kissed a girl was in that car. Anyways, I called them and as of today, the earliest they can get to me is March 08. I phoned in a deposit.

Here's a pic:

http://www.69lm1.com//69x11/x11.jpg

No, it was not an RS orig, and yes, that is the rear package tray on top of the hood! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

Rich

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

What is behind it in the lot??? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
If i buy this , and restore it or rebody it...


Steve ,
there you go again , your one track mind is running straight forward .
I never said ( Never ) said i was taking the Vin off that body , i wanted to rebuild it from the cowl back .
Ok did you read that right ? rebuild it from the cowl back .
can you say challenge ? something new to attempt ?
save a car ? restore them don't crush them ..

[/ QUOTE ]

That was your quote...you used the "REBODY" magic word and Barney Fife appeared. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is behind it in the lot??? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It looks to my untrained eyes like a Formula Firebird of some type... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

Yep, 74 I think. And that is a wrecked 69 Camaro X55 next to it as well. 12 bolt's been pulled. And yes, guy knows what he's got and he's got a lot more as well. It was said that he lost lots of $ in NOS parts in Katrina. He is the one that I bought the 69 LM1 flood car from ( www.69lm1.com/4sale ), and this was a bonus to sweeten the deal (my original car). I know the X55 is for sale as well if anyone is interested I could take some pics, but he ain't givin anything away, that's for sure.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

Kind of surprised this thread has gotten so much attention....but that's good.

When I saw this thread, I remembered the original Ebay ad for this "project". I thought the same thing today as I did back the first time I saw it, " who in their right mind would want to take on a project like this?" I thank the original owner for attempting to salvage this car as he had original ties to the car that go beyond what some of us have for our cars. He wanted to hold onto a keepsake that meant something very special to him is the take away I get from his Ebay ad. For some 38+ years he has kept what was left of his pride and joy from back in the day with him, while over the years he parted out the car. Today what is left is just a shell or even a carcass of what was once an almighty machine.

While the ad for the resto shop in GA is cool, you got to ask yourself when is enough, ENOUGH? What is left of this iron that terrorized the street back in the day couldn't even beat Barney Fife in a foot race today.....and by the way, Barney passed as well ( God rest his soul). So you are left with a fraction of the car as it used to be. Only the tag is really left for us to see today along with some mangled metal that makes Fred Flintstone's car look like a modern day master piece. At what point do we, as supporters of this hobby, say enough is ENOUGH? This particular former muscle car, will never be the same. Everything, except the trim tag and front body forks & firewall is all that is left. The rest is gone and will never be the same again.

Yes, I know it is a desirable car from the tag, but at what point do you draw the line? Some of us may go to old places of historical intertests that are renovated and replaced with period pieces but it's not the original surroundings where what ever historical point of the past occured. You just don't walk away with the same feeling ( ok, exclude Graceland !).

That's pretty much the way I feel about a project like this. Yes, it's cool to save, but, at what point do you say does the bad outweigh the good? It will never be exactly what it once was or even close to it, for that matter. What are we passing on for future generations?

Another way of looking at this, is suppose, at some point in the future, you get a chance to rekindle the romance you had with the girls from your teens. You may not of seen her for 20+ years and the headlights may not be the same as well as the tail lights too, had some grill work done, may of changed colors of the top or just plan let the whole shootin' match go the hell in a hand basket. At what point do you say enough is enough and move on?

Just my 2 cents in what has been an interesting discussion.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

nice post Tom...what I think it ends up being...is about the $$$...Face it, if these cars weren't going for such "stupid" money...then there wouldn't be people "willing to" resurrect something that should have been crushed years ago....

Just my 2 cents....

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

I personally have never CARED about value as much as i have cared about "the fun" aspect of this hobby. That being said... i remember parting out many a 67 Chevelle SS back in the 90's because it had a sunroof cut in it... or parting out a 68-72 Corvette only because it was a t-top automatic car.... when values go up, so do the risks that people are willing to take on a restoration.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]

While the ad for the resto shop in GA is cool, you got to ask yourself when is enough, ENOUGH?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for saying what everyone should be thinking. There is a point when you should be thinking about the restoration and saying to yourself, "Yeah I could do it, but should I do it." Reminds me of the Jeff Goldblum character in Jurassic Park lamenting that just because the science was there to reproduce carnivorous dinosaurs from their fossilized DNA, should the scientists do it? (That same lamentation was an actual debate among the original Manhatten project scientists concerning the building of the atomic bomb.)

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Taking this further, you guys talk about "Black-listing", etc... That's really none of your business, is it? Why stick your nose into someone else's business? I don't understand...



[/ QUOTE ]

I could add a lot of my opinion to this discussion, but the only thing i feel strongly about is i think we should keep track of cars that are rebodied, restamped or NOM(and matching 2 owners later). It is our business to help each other and newbies from being misled.

In my business, while we are watched and regulated, most of the deturrent is self policing. If your a dirt bag you will and should suffer.

I think we all know the difference between basket case (multiple panel replacement etc) and tag swapping.


Just an opinion

John

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]


I think we all know the difference between basket case (multiple panel replacement etc) and tag swapping.





[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I think we all know the difference between basket case (multiple panel replacement etc) and tag swapping.





[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen!

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

What does this qualify as?

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
What does this qualify as?

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's a welded in hidden vin, then complete deceit.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

Unbelievable... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

OK, but who decides how much metal is too much? A frame rail? Quarters, Floors and Trunk?

I would venture to say that most of the cars we drool over have over 30% metal replacement, conservatively. Most of the old supercars were not bought as investments, but "driven hard and put away wet". Many were tubbed, which basically means the whole back of the car is new.

Just a point.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

For what it's worth, this stuff has ALL been covered in detail in another long-winded thread from a couple years ago, and probably several others... this is the one that stuck out in my mind.

old rebody thread

I said it then, and I still feel the same way...

I don't see why its so hard to determine what is a rebody and what isn't. Yes, if you FIX the car you have, its not a rebody... if you turn a totally different car into one you have tags or documentation for, its a rebody... all the NOS sheetmetal in the world can't turn a car into a rebody...but taking one car and turning it into something else can. Some of you seem to be trying to say that replacing various sheetmetal pieces with new ones can eventually turn the car into a rebody... no way. I dont care if you piece by piece fix or replace every panel on your car, as long as you never bring in a different car and start taking smaller pieces (IE: the tags and firewall) of the original car and attaching them to the other one...bottom line is you gotta FIX the real car...not simply wheel in a different car and weld the real firewall to it. Seems like a simple enough explanation to me. You need to use the structure of the real car...that doesn't mean you can't do some major sheetmetal replacing, but i dont care how "bad" the car is, it can be fixed without replacing every square inch of car from the firewall back... If you don't have anything else but the firewall and tags of a real car, its a rebody.

As a side note to this... if you think its OK to replace the entire car with another car, leaving only the firewall and tags of the real one, then that would mean any clone yenko could become a real car if you found a rusty real yenko and welded the firewall to your clone... I don't think anyone anywhere would consider this clone to all the sudden become "real".... but yet thats essentially what you're saying is OK to do if youre starting with the rusty/damaged real car instead of the other way around.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK, but who decides how much metal is too much? A frame rail? Quarters, Floors and Trunk?

I would venture to say that most of the cars we drool over have over 30% metal replacement, conservatively. Most of the old supercars were not bought as investments, but "driven hard and put away wet". Many were tubbed, which basically means the whole back of the car is new.

Just a point.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I think we all know the difference between basket case (multiple panel replacement etc) and tag swapping.





[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen!

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

OK, how about a great condition car that has the cowl rusted. You need to remove the VIN to replace the cowl, does that make it a rebody.

With the car in quesion here, you could easily add all of the panels/parts without removing the VIN/Tag.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

Again, my point some years ago, and now remains the same.

What is the difference between a ZL1 and a 6 banger, body wise? None. The ZL1 got a different driveline from the rear to the engine and suspension. But the body, frame rails, subframe all were the same as a ZL1.

So, my personal opinion (and I know I'll get blasted for this) is that the emphesis should be on the driveline. That's what made a camaro special. No more clone worries, no more rebody worries, no more ttag worries, just real engine/tranny stamps and rear date codes and stamps. Still some room for fraud, but much reduced.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK, how about a great condition car that has the cowl rusted. You need to remove the VIN to replace the cowl, does that make it a rebody.

With the car in quesion here, you could easily add all of the panels/parts without removing the VIN/Tag.

[/ QUOTE ]

example would be repair


, .

I'll say it again..... we know the difference
coming up with hypotheticals is a waste of time.

John

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

I would beg to differ that the bodies of a 6hitter and the ZL1 were the same, as those small differences are how we can tell when a ZL1 has been rebodied with a 6hitter!

Some folks lust after original drivetrain, others after original sheetmetal, most after both. Either way, a rebody is exactly as Camarojoe described, there really is no gray area.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would beg to differ that the bodies of a 6hitter and the ZL1 were the same, as those small differences are how we can tell when a ZL1 has been rebodied with a 6hitter!


[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa, no disrespect, as I can be wrong, and frequently am, but are you saying that a 6 Cyl car and a ZL1 have differences in the actual body of the car? Not bolt on items (suspension etc) BUT, Frame Rails, Body Subframe (again not suspension, but the actual frame)etc?

That would throw everything that I thought I knew about how Fischer and option codes were assigned out the window if true.

I have never seen any structural (as defined above) diffences between any of the 6cyl, X11, LM1, X66, X33 or X44 cars that I have owned. Now, I have never owned a ZL1 or COPO, so I might be missing something?

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

Yes, there are differences in the bodies, some are obvious like the dual exhaust plates, etc...

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, there are differences in the bodies, some are obvious like the dual exhaust plates, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought those were welded on during assembly, and are they considered part of the "body" for puposes of this conversation?

I guess my point was the body of a 6banger and a ZL1 is the same (as far as I know) structurally, unlike say a Boss429 Mustang vs a 6 banger stang.

The "add ons" such as BE rear (which I understand was a "hardend" 12 bolt vs standard gears) and sway bars/Suspenson (springs) and finally drivetrain were what made a ZL1 a ZL1.

I guess, what I am saying, unless I am wrong, is that all camaros started out equal at Fischer (other than holes cut for tranny etc, but structurally), and it was on the assembly line where the "Special" items were added, thus, those are the items by which we ought to value as what makes a Camaro, a Camaro ZL1 (or SS or Z28 etc).

All of these "born as" type statements are unusual. A camaro is a camaro. It was the HiPo "stuff" that made them different.

Again, I am FAR from a expert like you (Marlin), Kurt and some of the other guys here, just making a point. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

To me, a special welded on plate, or a special piercing, hole, etc... makes the body different. We're probably splitting hairs here, as my head is starting to spin with this discussion. We go through this about once or twice a year!

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
To me, a special welded on plate, or a special piercing, hole, etc... makes the body different. We're probably splitting hairs here, as my head is starting to spin with this discussion. We go through this about once or twice a year!

[/ QUOTE ]

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

Yes, but at least we can discuss it without dropping into fighting, and I know when we as a group have had good discussions without being married to an opinion, I have learned several points and even modified my opinion on others. Guess it is like they say, it's the journey thats fun.

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

Yenko Deuce-- Utter poppycock. Ballyhoo. Embellishment of magnanomous proportions.

How about undercoating? How about mudflaps? What about fiber optics? You're insane???!!!

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yenko Deuce-- Utter poppycock. Ballyhoo. Embellishment of magnanomous proportions.

How about undercoating? How about mudflaps? What about fiber optics? You're insane???!!!

[/ QUOTE ]


Whoa Midas! The point in my last post was about how we can disagree without name calling! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif Please post your point as to why you disagree, and let the other guys make theirs. I think there are plenty more points to be made on both side, without the name calling https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif IF you meant it that way. Sometimes it's hard to tell when someone is kidding or really putting someone down. I use the https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif to show that I am foolin, and not putting someone down. My .02 anyway.

Rich

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

I for one, am proud of my nicknames. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif
So far I have:

1) McGyver
2) Mr. Preposterous
3) Dep. Barney Fife

I'm always lookin' for more. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
I for one, am proud of my nicknames. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif
So far I have:

1) McGyver
2) Mr. Preposterous
3) Dep. Barney Fife

I'm always lookin' for more. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Lawyers! (insert judicous use of icon here) https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yenko Deuce-- Utter poppycock. Ballyhoo. Embellishment of magnanomous proportions.

How about undercoating? How about mudflaps? What about fiber optics? You're insane???!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea what you are talking about with this post https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

I *think* the thought was that I was talking about structural issues, and these were "add ons". I still don't see any differences on the bodies from fischer.

For example, could you have taken a 6banger off the line, and dropped all of the ZL1 stuff into it and had the same performance? I *think* the answer is yes, which was my point that it was the ZL1 (speaking in spreads from lowest performance camaros to highest) specific "changes" that made a ZL1 camaro special (or more so than)a 250 6 banger camaro. Thus, my argument that if the emphesis (big word! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif ) was on those ZL1 specific items, then it would have a couple of effects. 1, It would be hard to "clone" a car (X66, X33 etc) although far from impossible and 2, it would render these discussions about how many body panels are too much. Of course, all of the guys with those Z's without original drivelines would see a decrease in value, if this became reality. Those with verifiable original drivelines would see a major increase in value, as the available pool shrinks.

Just some thoughts and far from fleshed out.............

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

Steve ,
Ok i'll take that . My bad , I should have never used the word " REBODY "
I didn't know that term ment removing Vin numbers , thats not what i was intending to do .
Joe

Re: I know you guys will tell me like it is ..
 

That "r-word" is one of those instant red flags that sets my little Barney Fife heart all a twitter. Like when I see Aunt Bee double parkin her Hudson in front of the fire hydrant. Gotta ticket her. Dont wanna do it, but it's my duty, Andy.