Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance c
 

Ray,

Excellent post. I appreciate the time you put into it. Permit me to continue our discussion by addressing a few of your points.

You stated, “In evaluating the “completeness” of the package I give little weight to whether or not the individual elements are made available elsewhere.”

Also, “You tell me the Z11 substituted many aluminum body parts for the Impala’s metal parts; I counter that the Corvette is an all-fiberglass –bodied car, designed specifically for its lightweight characteristics. Tell me that the Z11 came with wheels that were .5” wider than what was available on a standard Impala, a positive attribute for adding a bigger racing tire, granted. I counter that the L88 Corvette came with an even wider rim; no points should be lost because other Corvettes could be had with these wheels. The point is that the equipment that was supplied with EVERY L88 order was what Chevrolet thought was necessary for racing (and racing only).”

These points are very true in the context that the L-88 Corvette was an end result of years of refining the car to be more race-ready. Since many of the components of the L-88 “package” were already designed and offered with other engines, the L-88 did not have to be designed from scratch with that new equipment in order to achieve the all-out race car that it was. My point has been that the Z-11 “package” was designed from scratch, all at one point in time, for the specific outcome of producing a race car. Chevrolet didn’t have to design lighter body panels or wider wheels for the Corvette, but they did decide to do that in order to make the Z-11 meet its design intention. I don’t know of Chevrolet ever putting that much effort into another specific-purpose car with so many unique parts.

“You would be hard-pressed to contend that the Z11 was in any way the pinnacle performance achievement of Chevrolet history.”

I would never try to argue that point about the Z-11. It was just what it was at that point in time. It was just the pinnacle of “W” power.

“I chose to instead cast a ballot for what I consider to be the most significant “performer” of the muscle years.”

There is no doubt in my mind that the L-88 is the stronger “performer” of the two. I think our positions are perfect examples of the fact (as stated earlier) that everyone’s definition of “significant” is based on different criteria. I agree with your conclusion, “the RPO-Z11 and RPO-L88/ZL1… both FULL RACE-ENGINED and race packaged cars. Both extremely significant!” 100%

I actually believe that Chevy’s engineers made some mistakes on the Z-11, and didn’t go as far as they could/should have, but that’s another story.

Verne https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance c
 

[ QUOTE ]
I actually believe that Chevy’s engineers made some mistakes on the Z-11, and didn’t go as far as they could/should have, but that’s another story.

Verne https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Verne,

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on how the Z11 might have been improved or further developed. Also, wasn't the total built actually 57 rather than 50?

Excellent arguments for both cars from both you and Ray. I don't see that anybody is wrong. It is too subjective to ever come up with a definitive answer.

-Jon

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance c
 

Jon,

I guess this thread has strayed a bit, but then there haven't been any new votes for the most "significant" in a while, so I guess it's ok (right Charley? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif)

Regarding the 50 or 57 number, I know there have been MANY quotes by magazine writers, etc stating 57 was the number. Several people who have been digging into the history of those cars for many years believe the number is really 50. A production report issued by the Tonawanda engine plant (dated I believe July '63) lists production of total engine assemblies at 50. It lists other partial engines that were shipped, but only 50 complete units. I don't believe the Flint plant would have built a car from a partial engine plus the extra parts. They were not in the engine assembly business.

Now as to short-comings, I don't see any with the engines themselves. Raising the ports on the heads and using a 2-piece intake manifold was an engineering leap for that W design in '63. Along with pushrod guides and an aluminum water pump (which I forgot to add to the earlier list https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif), they made more milestones with that engine (surpassing any other Chevy design of the time).

The short-comings I see are subjective. I don't see that they did anything "wrong", but I feel they stopped short. It's as though all the engineers on the project wern't on the same page, all working toward the same goal.
For instance, they took the time to replace 2 grille brackets, that weighed a few ounces, with aluminum ones. They replaced a battery tray that weighs about 2 lbs with an aluminum one. But then they also designed an all-new air cleaner the size of a washing machine and built it in steel! They did not move to an aluminum radiator. I think more items could have been made of aluminum, but then, they might have learned an expensive lesson when they ruined a set of inner fender dies making the aluminum ones for '62.
The weakest point of a '63 passenger car was the rear axle assembly. Most other serious drag racers had already added a left upper rear control arm to control housing twist, but (again, contrary to rumor) they were not provided on the Z-11 Impalas.
A heater delete option was not part of the RPO Z-11 package. Someone just simply forgot......or thought they were also building a race car that could be driven to the store in the winter. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif It was up to the buyer to realize a heater was standard equipment on a '63 Impala, thus he should specify the delete option. There are several known Z-11s that were delivered with heaters.
And of course, they did not go to the extent that Ford or Mopar did with light doors, teeny seats or a trunk mounted battery.

All those subjective short-comings aside, I still believe the RPO Z-11 was Chevy's most serious attempt at building a complete race car bundled in one RPO, available to the public (although few), with such an assortment of unique equipment not available on other models. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Verne :beers

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance c
 

Excellent info from both Verne and Ray! I will be going to the first cruisenight that I've been able to take my car in about three years!! Maybe a few Z11 and L88 owners will be there conversing on the significance of their vehicles and I'll chime in !!

Thanks Guys https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ouguysrock.gif

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance c
 

Verne/LS6 Rat,

I appreciate your input. I take it from your agreement/lack of disagreement that there is consensus among us that the Z11 Impala, L88/ZL1 Corvette and ZR1/ZR2 Corvette were all factory-built “race-packaged” cars (among very few others).

My question to each of you and all others who care to respond is:

Would you agree that the Z11 Impala, the L88/ZL1 Corvette and ZL1 Camaro are the ONLY factory-built FULL-RACE engined cars made by Chevrolet and made available to the public, during the performance years?


(I don't think we need to worry that much about Charley allowing this slight veering from the original thread topic. He knows it's just too darn easy to post the https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...arleySucks.gif icon whenever we want.)

By the way, https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ouguysrock.gif

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance c
 

“…factory-built FULL-RACE engined cars made by Chevrolet and made available to the public, during the performance years?”

Ray, Now you’re making me think too hard. And I have this slight notion that you have a surprise in mind for us….

The following cars come into consideration:
’57 FI Corvette
’63 Z-06 Corvette
’65 Z-16
’67 Z-28
’69 ZL-1 Camaro
’70 LS-6 Chevelle
Cosworth Vega

While I believe all of those cars were capable of racing (and did) in various forms, I don’t think they fit your criteria. Each of them was available with a host of other options if desired and fully functional as a great street car. None of them required or included as many features, nor excluded other options as the cars you’ve listed.

I’ll wait to hear the opinions of others first, but I have this feeling you have a cat in the bag
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Verne https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance c
 

[ QUOTE ]
My vote is for the L88/ZL1 Corvettes. One RPO number assured you of a complete factory-built race car, an entire PACKAGE of mandatory components and unavailable items designed for and tested on the proving grounds of the world’s greatest racing circuits, Le Mans, Sebring, and Daytona.

L88/ZL1 Corvette… not simply Chevrolet’s pinnacled race gas-only fueled 560HP+ engine sitting in America’s great sports car; a top-of-the-line racing machine.

No other car mentioned in this poll could outperform these giants… in speed, handling, braking… PERFORMANCE and made available to the buying public.

That’s SIGNIFICANT.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ] I have to agree, the white /blue 67 L88 conv. that raced at LeMans, Daytona, Sebring is my persoanl favorite. It still retains its original motor too. Anyone who is in the Chicago area during the last weekend of June should stop by the Bloomington Gold show to check out the L88 invasion. I am told that there will be 60 cars in attendance. I will be there with my red 69, stop by and say hello. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance c
 

Ray,
It doesn't look like anyone else wants to venture a guess (answer) to your question. IF you have a surprise for us, please, unravel your sleeve! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Verne https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance car.
 

I think you would have to throw the following into the hunt as well........

http://www.57chevyblackwidow.com/guide.html

"most significant performance car" I think would have to be the Corvette. Maybe not always the fastest in a straight line from point A to B but performance is more than straight line speed. It still exists as an icon for performance after most have folded.

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance c
 

Verne,

Nothing up my sleeve, I assure you! It’s not my intention to trick anybody.

Getting little response makes me think the question needs to be clarified. Either that or I really did load a cat in a bag (maybe to take it somewhere it doesn’t WANT to go?) https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smirk.gif.

I believe it is widely accepted that Chevrolet in the ‘60s and early ‘70s produced a few levels of high-performance ENGINES. One level has been referred to as the “big block street high-performance” engines: the “solid-lifters”, L78/L72/LS6.

They also made available more highly-specialized, heavy-duty full-competition RACING engines. These motors were all high-compression (12:1+) requiring racing gas and otherwise designed and specified as off-road use only. This very short list includes the Z11 “W”427, the L88 and ZL1 427 and the LS7 454.

Does anyone know if there are any other Chevy power plants that would make this list and if so were they available factory-installed to the public?

If not (to reiterate):

Would you agree that the Z11 Impala, the L88/ZL1 Corvette and ZL1 Camaro are the ONLY factory-built FULL-RACE engined cars made by Chevrolet and made available to the public, during the performance years?

Any car that would measure up to this yardstick would surely qualify as a “significant” Chevrolet performance car, amongst the others already mentioned.

HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY TO OUR AMERICAN FRIENDS!
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance c
 

Monetary Value aside.

I would have to say for me personally it would have to be one of the Very first two "Nickey" Camaros which were built side by side, by Dick Harrell, at Nickey Chevrolet in 1966.

I believe these two cars to be the "First" L72 Camaro conversions. They were also the first 427 Super Stock Camaros built.

One For Mr. Bardahl and one for Mike Garfinkle.

Loads of special Technology and special parts from Bill Thomas Race Cars.

I would have to pic Mike's car as my preference of the two, since it later became known as the "First" Yenko Camaro and the "First Yenko sponsored Camaro race car, as well.

So the Nickey, Bill Thomas, Dick Harrell, Mike Garfinkle, Yenko, 1967 RS/SS Camaro Super Stock Race Car, would be my pick.

I was just looking over Grumpy's '67 Camaro this weekend and that would be a close number 2 pick.

Number three is a tie with another Nickey Camaro and the GM engineering built RS ZL1 Camaro, in Black and Gold.

JMHO