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69 camaro running in the 10s
well its winter time and im working on my camaro project,im going to be doing mostly racing ,ive got like 3 major questions i bought one of those new gm zl1 blocks,what would be the best rotating asy 454 or 427 , the best all around cam and what kind of traction control on the rear end ,its a stock 12 bolt rear end with the stock springs and its a 4 sp ,i really want a super reliable car i can enjoy racing and kicking but on the compatition,thanks so much for the help and happy new year kris...
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
I have built a couple of those..one 427 and one 454..now building a third..489..the 454 was a bear..the 427 while a good motor just did not have the "punch" I was looking for..hope tp remedy that problem with the 489..traction will be an issue..good tires and a good traction bar/aid will help..cam chioces are endless..transmissions..for racing a good auto..for street playing def a 4 speed or more!!
ALbert |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
I would basically set the car up as a Stock Eliminator car. Go on the Stock Eliminator Site and you can see what they have. They run 9" tires and use a 12 bolt rear. L78 motors run real well also. Get a hold of Rob Clary. He will dial you in on the motor and camshaft! He's fast! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
I don't think that a person could make a true NHRA Stock Eliminator very streetable. That camshaft may measure stock lift, etc, but it's VERY aggressive and hard on valvetrain parts. I also don't think the rings would live very long either when it comes to street driving. As far as the transmission goes, a TH400 would require an 8-inch 5500 RPM convertor and a stick car would require a very expensive Jerico 4-speed and a very expensive, "trick" clutch also. It's a neat idea, but a true NHRA Stocker is actually VERY far away from being "street-friendly". Now I do like the idea of buying a nice Eagle Reciprocating Assembly with a 4.25 stroke. This will give you a 482CID (standard bore of 4.25) or a 489CID (.030 for a 4.280 bore). That's internal stuff and nobody will know that it's not really a 427 unless you tell them! An extra 59 cubic inches.......wrap 'em up.....I'll take 'em! I'd slide in one of my personal favorite Comp Cams 288 Street Solid Rollers (very street-able!), find a set of #077 GM aluminum heads (NOT #074's), a GM factory aluminum high-rise intake for a great performing, yet factory-looking appearance, 850 double-pumper, and a set of 2-inch #2457 Hooker headers and this motor will make 600-620 easily on pump gas and live forever.
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
I agree with Mark. Just to give you a better idea of what it takes to make a Stocker work (and at least be competitive), here’s a tiny bit insight into my B/Stick Firehawk….ten years or so ago:
When it came to the rear end, I used a custom cast 12 bolt center section from KTRE. I had it narrowed as much as I thought could get away with (so that I could use wheels with the smallest backspace, since they’re the lightest. The axle tubes were 4130 (lighter than mild steel). I had Mark Williams rifle drill the axles as much as he dared, then he heavily (and I mean Heavily) scalloped the flanges. The spool was similarly scalloped. Williams back cut the ring gear to save weight. The wheels were the lightest Monocoque could build. The Firebird body was stripped to the bone. It was, uhm, “detailed” with a die grinder, a cut off wheel and a holesaw where it wasn’t visible. MPR sectioned (yes, sectioned) the control arms to narrow the track width. In those days, stock brakes were mandatory. Soooo…out back, I used aluminum drums with no parking brake bits whatsoever inside. On the nose, I machined the rotors to minimum and like everyone else at the time, cut the pads to half thickness which, along with “tweaked” stock calipers (that took four trips to the machine shop to lighten) was necessary to fit everything inside a 15X3.5-inch Monocoque front wheel. Alf Weibe fit a Pinto rack and pinion to the front. Some of my racing pals teased me about the “Pontiac Volare” master cylinder I used too (one of Roger Lamb’s $450 modified Mopar jobs). NHRA declared my round tube rod end equipped trailing arms illegal, so I had Alf make up a set that had looked more stock, but had spherical bearings hidden in the respective ends. Alf also revised the front a-arms to accept spherical bearings where bushings went. The front ride height was totally adjustable (it was actually possible to drop the car so low that the front k-member hit the ground). I also had a set of triple adjustable Penske shocks made up for the car, but they were never installed. The LT1 heads went to Dave Layer for, uhm, a valve job. The pistons were custom legal jobs from Lunati. Lunati “indexed” the crank (stroked it +.013-inch). I sent a stock oil pan to Ollie Volpe (who was at Moroso at the time). He fit it with a custom scraper/windage screen, but left the outside looking stock. I could go on, but let’s just say the work inside the engine was extensive. To make a long story short, Tim Bishop set the B/Stick record with that car. It’s “legal” and today, I’ll bet maybe even a bit outdated. These cars are so sophisticated; they can easily compete in Super Stock. And they consume copious quantities of cash. To make ‘em run really hard (as in setting a record or racing another identically classed car heads up), you have to put them on “kill”. That eats parts like mad (big block guys have to have a rocker arm concession). I can go on forever on this topic, but stock isn’t stock. Most racers will tell you that’s why they put spaces between the lines in the NHRA Rulebook. And to answer part of the original question, to go fast, just plug in the biggest possible engine. Then figure out how to make it hook. David Reher (Reher-Morrison) gave me that tiny piece of advice years (decades) ago and it still makes sense today. Best of luck… Wayne Scraba |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
GREAT info Wayne and Mark!
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
One thing I forgot was this itsy-bitsy piece of trivia. When I worked for National DRAGSTER, I was off to Indy for the US Nats. I spent a lot of time in the sportsman pits (hey – these guys read my column…I doubt any of the Top Fuel or flopper folks cared….<g>). One of the Super Stock guys I knew was really in deep trouble with his car. It wouldn’t build oil pressure. Guess why not? At the time (late nineties), it was the in thing to remove every second tooth off the oil pump in an effort to reduce internal friction. Apparently, it worked reasonably well if you were careful with oil choice. But this racer also used the latest and greatest 0-wt oil (yes, it does exist….it resembles water in consistency). Coupled together, the small block just couldn’t build PSI. Now, to be fair it was afterall, INDY!. The car was running in class eliminations. The racer needed everything he could throw at it. The problem eventually was resolved by switching to a “heavy oil” (likely 10W or something in that range). It just goes to show how over the top little guy racing has become.
Cheers! Wayne Scraba https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Wow...these sound like some of the stories that Ken has told me. I love all of the cool stories. Keep it up! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Hey Wayne, Thanks for all the great articles of the years! I learned alot from you. Loved the 69 Camaro!
and Kris, here is our 69 Camaro making a few runs. It was a pump gas 468 with 3.73s and 28 x12.50 ET Streets and no traction bars (thanks again Wayne!) PM me if you have any questions. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...0173449938518# Andrew |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
I'm pretty sure it's Redline Oil that's been making that O-WT oil that's become popular in Pro Stock. Now, you figure that class has been essentially the same since they initiated the 500 CID/2350 LBS rules in 1982. I really don't even keep track anymore, but what's the current P/S record these days.......6.50-6.60? That means just a little over ONE FULL SECOND reduction in ET over a period of 28 YEARS. That's pretty incredible! They've used the dual Dominator configuration since the beginning, so you figure they really had to beat the bushes to find that one second! Hey Wayne, remember back in the Seventies of hearing the short-lived fad of running Lencos totally dry?!
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Hi Mark….
I recall running stuff (engines, transmissions, rear axles) low on fluid, so I wouldn’t put it past someone to run a Lenco empty. Don’t imagine since it is a planetary trans, how happy it would be though <g>. I have some other interesting figures for anyone who cares. Last year I did a whole bunch of work on a drag race special magazine special for Race Engine Technology out of the UK. I talked them into a section on Sportsman Racing. Some of the itsy bitsy facts and figures are startling. My old pal, Mike Pustelny tells me the average front to rear wheel drive conversion Super Stock GT chassis now goes out the door for $125,000 or so, less engine, trans, headers and a few accessories (!), while a custom built recreation of a B029 or L023 Mopar Hemi Cuda or Dart will go out the door for between $125,000 an $175,000! Mike says there are between 450 and 525 man hours necessary to build a state of the art SS/GT FWD conversion car and 550 hours necessary to build a Super Stock A Hemi car. You’re not done yet. Charlie Wescott (the leader of the Warfish bunch) tells me you better bring $65,000 to the plate to bring home a new Super Stock race hemi. I’m sure Ray Barton gets an equal amount for one of his bullets. A bit closer to home for me, I also spoke to Robin Whitcomb of B-A-M (Oregon) regarding a Stock Eliminator big block Chevy. The Sorenson brothers run out of his shop and have held the A/SA record on and off with a L72 ’69 Camaro. That engine (are you sitting down?) produces 641 HP at the peak with an extremely wide powerband. It’s also fragile when on “kill” according to Robin, so it needs a lot of maintenance. You can buy a near twin to that engine from Whitcomb for a mere $30,000! Robin tells me a more pedestrian engine combination such as a 250 HP 327 Stocker motor will only set you back $17,000 or so. Moving over to Competition Eliminator, I spoke to Bob Panella Jr. (some of you might remember his cool dad Bob Sr. – he used to run the Panella Trucking Gassers). Anyway, Bob Jr. tells me that a 320 cubic inch, 15-degree, single four barrel wet sump motor costs in the neighborhood of $50,000! Add a dry sump and multiple carbs and the price jumps by another $10,000. When it comes to Sportsman racing, purses aren’t exactly large either. At Indy (US Nationals), the winner in Stock Eliminator received $2,500. A Super Stock win could garner $3,000 while taking home the Competition Eliminator “Wally” was worth $3,500. In all fairness, contingency awards increase the purse, but the racer is at the mercy of the participating manufacturer as to when (or now it seems, if) he or she is paid. If you spun the clock back twenty-five to thirty years, I think you’d find the purses were proportionately stronger (by a country mile). We used to always figure if we won a National Event and collected all of the contingencies, we could just about cover the cost of the racecar. Figured this info might prove interesting to some. And I’m sorry to the original poster – we got a way off track! Wayne Scraba https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Wayne, Thanks for all the great articles of the years! I learned alot from you. Loved the 69 Camaro! and Kris, here is our 69 Camaro making a few runs. It was a pump gas 468 with 3.73s and 28 x12.50 ET Streets and no traction bars (thanks again Wayne!) PM me if you have any questions. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...0173449938518# Andrew [/ QUOTE ] Thanks for the comps man. You sure do have a bad boy '69! And wow, I suspect you're hardly spinning it over given the back gear (soo.....when are you really gonna cut it loose <g>?) Take care bud! Wayne Scraba |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Hearin' ya loud and clear, Wayne. I recently purchased a book about managing personal finances and how to make wise investments, but for the life of me........I just can't find the chapter on Drag Racing.
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Well first off,happy new year to all,and Thank you everyone who responded,it looks like i just got decades of information in one thread,and i thank you so much,Im up here in the sticks of alaska,racing on an old abandoned air strip,so i dont want to get to crazy,i just want to go fast and give a good show for the crowd that shows up there about 16 of us racing i took third last year with my 70 ls5 4 sp chevelle with the origenal born with motor,i dont want to run that motor again,i would hate to break it, so ive got this 69 camaro and this new zl1 block,and now that the trucking season is over, i got time to get started on this project,i think i like the idea of putting a stroker asy in the new block with the 077 heads,and i just love racing 4speeds im confused on the gear ratio,im sure glad i didnt by 456 gears im starting to think 411or 373 like andrews car would be a better option,i also have a line on a used zz502,but i sure like the idea of the zl1 block,for now im gonna reread all these post and thank you wayne and everybody for all the great info ,happy new year kris...
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Happy New Year to you too Kris. Hey, I took the liberty of crunching some numbers for you (and that’s all drag racing boils down to – plenty of numbers). With a 3850 pound Chevelle (a guesstimate with you in it, fuel and a iron rat motor…but a rag might be heavier I think), it will take approximately 585-590 horsepower to run 125 MPH and change in the quarter mile. If you can run a buck and a quarter, then I’m pretty sure you’ll get your magical ten-second time slip.
To move that Chevelle, you’ll need some gear. It’s a big car with a big frontal area and more than likely will carry a lot more weight than a 1969 Camaro. Torque will be your friend too. The combo I came up with goes something like this: 590 HP (at roughly 6,500 RPM) 502 Turbo 400 (stock 2.48; 1.48; 1.00:1 gears) 10-inch converter (3200 RPM or so stall speed) 3850 pounds ready to race 4.56:1 rear axle 10X28-inch tire (slick or drag radial) This should give you something like a 10.90-something ET with a trap speed in the 126 MPH range, provided everything is dialed in, the weather cooperates, you use good fuel and the planets are aligned. Usually a shift point 10% or so over peak is what you’ll find necessary (I didn’t take the time to plot RPM drops….that’s really what determines it). A stick can do the job, but I don’t know if I’d be too willing to play that game with a big car and big power. If you decide to go with a stick, keep in mind you’ll probably end up side-stepping the clutch at big RPM numbers to make it all work. That usually tears stuff up,uhm, rather quickly, especially when you’re in this territory. I might catch some flak on this, but I’m no fan of aluminum blocks. If you look around, you’ll find that most of the top shelf big power stock based or style engines in North America still use good old fashioned iron blocks (NASCAR, NHRA Pro Stock, etc.). Its because aluminum doesn't make heat (heat makes power), some of them move around a lot (dimensionally), they tend to have smaller bore sizes than say something like a 502 (a big bore size unshrouds the valves a lot on a rat motor). And for the price of an aluminum block, you can buy a pretty fancy big bore iron rat motor block. And don’t confuse the use of aluminum blocks in Top Fuel and Funny Car (and maybe some mountain motor classes) with the above either. The big reason they use aluminum is because they can fix ‘em when they put a window in it (plus they can change sleeves at the track). Bottom line here is, the cubes from the 502 will work a whole bunch better than a 427. I’d send the heads to someone competent, get hooked up with a good (and I mean Good) cam designer like Harold Brookshire, piece together a decent oiling system and in the words of my late (but esteemed and sorely missed) pal and mentor, Steve Collison, “let the big dog eat”! Catch ya’ later man… Wayne Scraba |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Hey Kris...My bad...I should have re-read your question instead of rushing in.
If you go with the Camaro, you can probably get away with a bit less grunt and gear. Weigh the thing though <g>. You could be surprised. I've witnessed more than a few that proved a wee bit heavier stock than their owners anticipated. In any case, cubes and torque are your friends! Wayne Scraba https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Hi Kris, the combo I run in my 69 Camaro might be of interest to you. Stock eliminator type suspension,9-inch tires,unported iron chevy heads. Very low 10's in average conditions. Let me know if I can help! Dana
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Kris, do they have 60 ft clocks where you race? With it not being an actual drag strip , what is traction like, not just at the starting line but overall?
We ran the car with very little gear due to lots of NOS. It would hook with a fogger and a Big Shot plate off the line, with no timing computer. So on the motor it had no traction issue at all and made for a great street car. On the video you can hear the engine get pulled down going through the gears. Send Ryan a PM regarding the ZL1 aluminum block, he building one right now and is very knowledgeable. Andrew |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Wayne ,The car was built as a NOS car, it has run alot faster. When the track said don't come back unless you have a chute. We stopped running it, because we didn't want to cut it up. We have since converted the car to run in the FAST/SUPERCARS series where you have to run exhaust manifolds, full 2.5" exhaust etc... and repro bias ply tires. G70 14s to be exact. We have got a 1.61 60ft time so far in testing. Check out Ryans ZL1 build for the same class.
Andrew |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
No we dont have no 60 foot clocks yet ,we just became a non profit organization,so we are all working on getting a tree,should have it by next summer,the old air port runway is asphalt my chevelle launches pretty good for a 4 speed car but i raced 4 sp all my life growing up,i just love that challenge of getting the car to hook up ,i tell people to take off like your going grocery shopping ,then let it have it,you can see the races on you tube, ive got the 70 chevelle its under (ketchikan kruzers) thats are car club name,Its just good ol fun,im thinking my chevelle was running in the 13s again just guessing,it was just heads up racing this year and now im hooked line and sinker,to going faster, back to this build, i can first tell you im so glad i didnt start ordering parts and not posting this first thanks again,now ive got a bunch of options,if my car could go close to andrews i would be more then happy,ive got about 10g in my budget,hope thats enough,originally i had planned to put one of those rotating assembly 427 or 454 kits in my block,and try and build it durable,but now i kinda liken the idea of a stroker!,more then anything though im going to race a 4sd,and ive got two m22s in stock,i should give you guys the vins off the trans to make sure there not to rare,so if im dead set on racing a 4speed,should i stay with the lower torque motor and building a horsepower engine,is that what breaks the 4speeds the torque?well thanks again all..kris
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Anyone know this car? Looks like a Z28, 4-speed 302? 10.61, can that be? Wenzel, Duzac, McNesh? Just posted and all over the net. Maple Grove maybe?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCYsdaFOJes Bob |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
That is Jerry MacNeish at the Dutch Classics at Maple Grove, on the brakes. Running in D/Stick. A very fast REAL 1967 Z/28. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
I suspect that this car will run in the 10.40's in good air? That car runs better than most big block cars. Incredible! Stock eliminator car, right? I've had both over the years, 302's and 427's. My boys love the Z28's.
Have seen Duzacs car and Wenzels car run at Indy, they don't leave the starting line like that. Does he have a web site? Bob |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Yep, Camaro Hi-Performance in Maryland. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Thanks,
Talked with him this morning. We are going to send my son's 302 to him for rebuild. He sent me some dyno sheets for review and rebuilds all of his engines on the stock eliminator foundation. Little tricks for performance. Does a lot of engines. Can make over 400 hp if I want, and very streetable. I will contact some of the his customers before I do just to make sure. Very impressed with what they do. The '67 Z28 is tagged and he does drive it to local cruise nights. Said he will try for the record in April. Thanks, Bob |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
If the air is good in April he will be on or under the record. Atco, Cecil County and Maple Grove are real fast when the air is good. Stay tuned!! And yes CHP does know the little tricks it takes to make the 302 fly! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Talked to two customers, one has a '68 L78. Engine made 458 HP on Burtonsville Machine dyno? I don't know them, that's where he dynos. Guy is tickled, stock everyting with .040" head gaskets, 143 cam, etc. That's big power for one of those engines in stock form. Runs on pump gas too. I was worried about that issue. Another guy, police officer, '69 Z28, car runs in the low 13's in the heat with street tires, granny shifting and closed exhaust. This 302 made 420 HP.
We are crating up our 302 this weekend. Thanks again, Bob |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
I know Burtonsville Machine. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Just found another round at the Dutch Classic race. Look at the wheelstand here. 10.58 on the brakes. Both cars ran too quick by one. Wow. Great eye candy for Stock Eliminator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-2GZtY9REY Bob |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Well i tore down the ram jet 502,what a big bore ,ive decided im gonna build that for my car,i dont want to run the fuel injection unit i want to run a nice intake and carb,its an older 502 looks like 2000 build,from arizona speed and marine,the bore is 4.5 inches and the stroke is 4 inches, could i put a 4.25 crank in this engine,the heads look pretty nice alum 12363391,the rods are pressed in,i have it all torn down, every thing looks realy good,the pistons dont have a part number on them but they look low compression,what i was thinken is higher compression bigger cam and a 4.25 crank,any advice would be greatly appreciated Thanks again kris...
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
You have the makings of a great combination there. Eagle makes a 4.25 Stroke crankshaft that will go right in that Gen 6 block. You'll have yourself 540 CID. Eagle also makes complete Crankshaft Reciprocating Assemblie that will include a forged crankshaft, H-Beam rods, and either high or low compression pistons. I'd also slide in a mild streetable solid Roller camshaft too (NOT a hydraulic roller!) and you will have one bad-ass motor that will have very little or no equal to whatever pulls alongside you!
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
You can actually slide a 4.500" crank in there with a little extra work and a few extra $$$...with a 4.500 bore you've got 572".
At that point traction becomes a rather serious issue... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
[ QUOTE ]
You can actually slide a 4.500" crank in there with a little extra work and a few extra $$$...with a 4.500 bore you've got 572". At that point traction becomes a rather serious issue ... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif [/ QUOTE ] ...in a GOOD way!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/laugh.gif |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
I've owned & fooled around with these big engines quite a bit and I've built 540 CID's based on GM Gen 6 502 blocks and you can get a 4.25 stroke crankshaft for less than $800. A 4.500 Stroke crank starts to get pretty expensive. Plus, I've NEVER seen or heard of anybody making a 572 from a short deck block such as the 502 CID. I'm sure it can be done with terribly short connecting rods in that short deck height block but it's really just not a good idea. Even on GM's very own 572 Crate motor, they avoided that 4.500 stroke crank shaft and chose to only go with a 4.375 stroke in a Tall deck block. 540 CID short deck engines have become immensely popular and represent the best bang for the buck.
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
...............
-edit- No need to further derail the OP's topic... |
Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Thank you so much,Thats what route im goin 4.25 crank,When i order the rotating assembly,do i want to just order a new fly wheel and balencer and get the whole setup ballenced,and then on the cam side im racing a 4sp m22 and 373,whats the best cam set up and valve spring for my engine thanks again kris...
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Re: 69 camaro running in the 10s
Something nice about the newer Eagle 540 Recip. assemblies is that they come Internally balanced compared to the older Externally balanced ones. You can also have the choice of .250 or .400 longer rods but with the short deck of your block, I think I'd go with the .250 longer rods just to try to keep the wrist pin out of the lower ring lands. As far as camshafts go, pick your favorite camshaft company with a solid Roller with around 250-260 @.050 lift, .650-.670 lift and 110 degree lobe centers. Use the recommended valve springs of whatever camshaft you choose. Now, you're really pushing the outer limits of your particular cylinder head casting and while there would be power to gain from a larger head, I think you could still get away with using the heads that you have. With the stock location exhaust ports on your heads, just make sure you used a dual-pattern camshaft instead of a single pattern and that it has about 8-10 degrees more duration on the exhaust lobe. I don't know what you're going to use for an intake manifold or what kind of hood clearance you have but I'm a big fan of Dart intakes and 950-1000 4150 Double Pumpers. While we seem to have drifted off topic a bit here, I hope this information is helpful and if I can be of any more assistance, just PM me. Thanks.
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