1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but at a large cruise night around here, a 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car, with a stand up board, and a letter (from I think 1992) from GM Oldsmobile-Canada stating the car had a COPO designation, 1 of 3 cars made with a 4-speed trans, and a "special high-perf engine" (not sure if they were insinuating it may have been a W-30?). Anyway, I thought GM Canada was rock solid with documentation, I question the COPO designation.

Anyone know of this car?

(And I also saw the Jeff Morocco Chevelle there, and a whole slew of race cars. For anyone in the area, Rolling Meadows on Friday Nights is a great cruise spot!) [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StealthBird</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure if this has been discussed before, but at a large cruise night around here, a 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car, with a stand up board, and a letter (from I think 1992) from GM Oldsmobile-Canada stating the car had a COPO designation, 1 of 3 cars made with a 4-speed trans, and a &quot;special high-perf engine&quot; (not sure if they were insinuating it may have been a W-30?). Anyway, I thought GM Canada was rock solid with documentation, I question the COPO designation.

Anyone know of this car?

(And I also saw the Jeff Morocco Chevelle there, and a whole slew of race cars. For anyone in the area, Rolling Meadows on Friday Nights is a great cruise spot!) [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] </div></div>http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_de...D=SC0510-90285

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

Thanks Joe, I <span style="font-style: italic">thought</span> this had been discussed before!

Not sure if this was the same car, the one we saw had the Indy decals all over it. I'll try to get a few pics soon.

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

The car linked in the auction is a Cutlass, not a 4-4-2.

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

My cousin owns the car you guys are talking about. He did buy it from Mecum at the Indy auction. When the car was bought the info you saw on the board at the car show was what came with the car. COPO was put on the front windshield of the car at the auction. We are in the process of re-researching the car.

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

Rockdaddy, welcome to the site!

Questions: Did your cousin put all the Indy decals on the car after he purchased it? Also, I thought all 1970 Olds Pace Cars were built off the 442 model, and the one that sold at Mecum was a base Cutlass?

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

Thanks StealthBird
The Indy decals were on the car when he bought it. The pictures from the Mecum web site must be the wrong ones. The car was listed for sale on other sites that were correct. I'm in the process of trying to figure this car out.

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

Mike, I think 358 pace cars were Cutlass Supremes, and 268 were 4-4-2s.

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

Not necessarily the case w/ this car but keep in mind how GM Canada Vintage Services 'documents' especially those supplied in the earlier years of their service can be sometimes confusing and/or misleading..

God love George and the way things are done at GM Vintage Services now but depending on the way GM Canada personnel ever interprets the Vin specific microfilm on file also how it jives w/ what they know and information available at the time has a lot to do w/ the what's printed on some GM Canada 'docs'...again especially in the earlier years of this service..

Welcome aboard RockDaddy!

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
~ Pete

A '70 Pacer Post car would be cool!.

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 442w30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike, I think 358 pace cars were Cutlass Supremes, and 268 were 4-4-2s. </div></div>

Diego,

You remember the drop top Pace Car at the PSMCDR? That car is a Cutlass with a 455. So it can be confusing to say the least.

Welcome aboard, Rockdaddy!!!

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

Rusty, I forgot about that pace car. I don't know if memory is feeble because it appeared in the pits or I had another obligation in 2003 and missed the event.

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

I didn't realize some of the 1970 Pace Cars were just Cutlasses. Typically, Indy Pace Cars were high perf models (or at least built off the high-perf model), so it seems strange that Oldsmobile would build some off a regular Cutlass.

Did some of these &quot;Cutlass&quot; Pace Cars have typical Oldsmobile appointments, like column shift, 350, bench seat, and a standard soft suspension?

Did the Pace Cars at least get the 442 suspension?

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

I don't know much about the Cutlass cars other than I suspect they're basic Cutlass Supremes with pace car trim. Was there some mandatory equipment for the 4-4-2s? If so, I'd suspect it would be similar for the Cutlass. I'm not sure if I have any info on them at home.

However, if you want to know about a dealer-prepped pace car for Dover Downs, I can answer all the questions you have! :-)

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif[/img] [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif[/img]

Well, doesn't seem to be much info on the web about the 1970 Olds Pace Cars. Just surprising that Olds would build some in the base Cutlass trim, with 350's. At least the 442's had different suspension, rear sway bar, dual exhausts, etc. I would have thought all the Pace Cars would at least have bucket seats and a console.

But why offer the 70 Pace Car on a regular Cutlass? Couldn't have been for insurance reasons....I mean, you tell your insurance agent you bought a 1970 Cutlass, not a 442, but it's a convertible (which raises the rate), and it's a special option code that makes it an Indy Pace Car, something I would imagine would be targeted by thieves.

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

It's not a &quot;Regular&quot; Cutlass - it's a high-zoot Cutlass Supreme.

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

(I forgot to add a smiley.) [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

I never understood the 1970 Cutlass Pace Car either. Could be a budget way to get a Pace Car looking Cutlass. I always loved the 1970 Pace Car, certainly one of my favorites.

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

I don't really see the confusion?

The '69 Camaro's base engine was a 350, just like the Cutlass Supreme's.

The '68's Torino GT's base engine was a 302.

The '67 Camaro's was like the '69's.

The '66 Cyclone was 390-only.

The '65 Sport Fury probably was a 383 for most of the versions sold by dealers, although information on the replicas is somewhat murky.

I think the Cutlass Supreme is just par for the course.

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

Any '70 SX Pace Cars built?.

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
~ Pete

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

I think the &quot;confusion&quot; is that the other Pace Cars you listed were built on performance models. The Cutlass was not a performance model.

The 1967 and 1969 Camaro Pace Cars were all RS/SS. They were performance cars.

The 1968 Pace Cars were all Torino GT's, the performance option.

The 1966 Pace Cars were all Cyclone GT's, the performance option.

The 1971 Pace Cars were all Challenger 383's, no 318's built.

Pace Car replicas were typically offered to the public using the performance package. There were of course Pace cars that were not performance cars at all (1973 Eldorado), so there's nothing wrong with that.

But seriously, in 1970, you had the &quot;wicked&quot; W-30, the Rallye 350, the W-31, and the whole Dr. Olds campaign in full swing, they were chosen as the Indy Pace Car, and they make a Pace Car in both 442 <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> Cutlass forms? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

&quot;The 1971 Pace Cars were all Challenger 383's, no 318's built.&quot;

Some were in fact 318 and some had 340's. The 1971 Pace car was provided through the Indianappolis Area Dodge Dealers and they ordered their own cars, They all had to be orange.

http://www.indypacecars.com/1971vins.html

You will see from the list, engines used were the G (318) H (340

l and N were 383's

Paul

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome.
We are in contact with GM Canada and are in the process of trying to figure out what this car really is. I will keep you guys posted as we get info.

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

Mike, Paul answered what I couldn't (I'm at Carlisle), but the Sport Fury was not a performance model. Neither was the Torino GT.

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

Ok, thanks for the info, I didn't know that about the 71 Challengers. They were not R/T's, correct? Just regular Challengers?

I was really focusing on the 66-70 era of Pace Cars that Diego was talking about when he brought up his opinion that in those years, the Pace Cars were not necessarily performance equipped. I threw in the 71 Challenger as an afterthought as I went through the list.

My point was that the 66-69 Pace Cars were built on PERFORMANCE models. The Pace Cars from 66-69 (the cars Diego mentioned) were performance based (yes, the Torino GT too). Forget about engine size for a moment, the Torino GT, Comet GT, and Camaro RS/SS, were all special models off the base models; Torino, Comet, and Camaro. They did not produce standard Torino Pace Cars, base Comet Pace Cars, or base Camaro Pace Cars, correct? But Oldsmobile did in 1970. That was my whole point. Now, if the Indy 500 committee awarded the 1970 Cutlass as their choice for Pace Car, then it's understandable why they made Cutlass Pace Cars. But they chose the 442, not the Cutlass.

In general, it seems like manufacturers slathered up the Indy Pace Cars with stripes and stickers, perhaps some special paint schemes (77 Olds, 78 Corvette, etc), and occasionally, they were not performance cars at all. But when a manufacturer was awarded Pace Car status, such as in the case of the Indy Pace Car committee choosing the Olds 442 as the 1970 Pace Car, why build some off the base Cutlass model, and with a 350?

Other than the 73 Eldorado, Pace Cars appeared to be the &quot;performance&quot; version of a base model.

1972 Hurst/Olds
1973 Eldorado (not a performance car)
1974 Hurst/Olds
1975 Buick Century (not a performance car)
1976 Buick Century (Turbo)
1977 Olds Delta 88 (2-door model, with a 403 engine)
1978 Corvette
1979 Mustang II (V8)
1980 Trans Am (Turbo)
1981 Buick Regal (Turbo)
1982 Chevy Z-28
1983 Riviera (Turbo)
1984 Fiero (GT version)
1985 Cutlass Calais (not a performance car)
1986 Corvette
1987 LeBaron (Turbo)
1988 Olds Cutlass (not a performance car, but the best Olds had)
1989 Trans Am Turbo
1990 Berreta (Quad 4)
1991 Viper
1992 Cadillac Allante (Northstar)
1993 Z-28
1994 Mustang Cobra
1995 Corvette
1996 Viper
1997 Olds Aurora
1998 Corvette
etc

When Pontiac was awarded the Pace Car honors in 1989 for their 20th Anniversary Turbo Trans Am, they did not offer a Pace Car replica on a base Firebird, slathered up in stripes and decals.

Now, back to the ORIGINAL point of this whole thread...the 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car that was seen at a local cruise night was a COPO, and we will see if Rockdaddy has any further information on this car. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif[/img]

All the other info shared in this thread was fantastic. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

Good points on all counts. It would appear that the two cars chosen to pace the INdy 500 are performance models,to the extent that the actual pace cars got tweaked to do the job&gt; this became more a necessity in the 70,s as the off the shelf performance packages were not up to the standards to get the job done.
Case in point was the 72 Hurst Olds. The actual pace cars got modified 455's, special gearing and bigger brakes. They did not use the &quot;X&quot; code 455, but rather built a special engine with mostly 1970 components.
In 1964 the Mustang,as a pace car was a convert,but Hardtop models with the less potent 260 were used for parade duties.
In 1973 the Cadillac had to be modified by stripping out 500 lbs of weight and seriously tweaking the 500 cu in engine to meet the requirements.
I see the selection of the 1970 442 as a choice of a performance convertible, interesting that no 442 hardtops were offered as pace cars, yet the Cutlass Supreme converible was.
Looks like each manufacture opted to celebrate their involvement in different ways.

Paul

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

Some great info, I did not know that about the 72 H/O cars.

From what I recall, all the Pace Cars (the ones actually used on the track) had engine modifications (and usually suspension mods) in order to allow them to hold the high Indy pace lap speeds. Pace Cars not only had to hold a high speed for several laps, but accelerate at full throttle as they came came down the front stretch, sweep off into pit lane, then it was full-on braking.

I believe the first Pace Car (modern era, when pace lap speeds were high) that did not have to have any engine modifications was the 1980 Trans Am Turbo Pace Car. From what I recall, they only removed the a/c unit, then added the necessary safety equipment. The car could already stop on a dime, and handling/high speed aerodynamics was not a concern.

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StealthBird</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what I recall, all the Pace Cars (the ones actually used on the track) had engine modifications (and usually suspension mods) in order to allow them to hold the high Indy pace lap speeds.</div></div>With the exception of the strobes and safety equipment, the 89 TTAs didn't receive ANY mods. HTH.

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

JUST FOUND THIS CONVERSATION TODAY AND WANT TO HELP WITH INFORMATION. UP UNTIL LAST YEAR I ONLY HAD 2 DOCUMENTED 4SP CUTLASS PACE CARS GOING TO CANADA IN MY REGESTRY. ONE OF WHICH SHOWED UP ON EBAY AFEW YEARS BACK. LAST YEAR I GOT A COPY OF THE EXPORT SHEET AND THERE WAS AT LEAST 1 442 4SPD SENT TO CANADA.I HAVE TRIED TO OPTAIN THE EXPORT SHEETS OR AT LEAST RESEARCH FROM GM CANADA AND THE GENTLEMAN I TAKED TO ON THE PHONE WAS NOT MUCH HELP AT ALL AS HE REFUESD ANY INFORMATION ON THE SHEETS AND THEIR EXCISTANCE. IF SOMEONE HAS SOME CONNECTION ON THE EXPORT SHEET I WOULD LOVE TO GET COPIES FOR HISTORY. AS FOR THE COPO THESES WERE NOT IN ANY WAY A SPECIAL ORDER COPO TYPE CAR. THE ONLY SPECIAL CODE IS THE Y74 WHICH WAS A PACE CAR STRIPE OPTION AND INCLUDED A FIBERGLASS RAM AIR HOOD. SPECIAL NOTE HERE IS THAT YOU COULD NOT HAVE A W30 OR W31 AND A Y74 AS YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN ORDERING TWO RAMAIR HOOD AND EACH WOULD HAVE CANCELED EACH OTHER. THE TRACE CARS WERE FOR THE MOST PART JUST CHEAP FACTORY ORDERED CARS. AS FOR THE REPLICA CARS THEY COULD HAVE BEEN ORDERED VIA THE DEALER WITH A LOT OF OPTIONS, SOME WERE EVEN USED AS A RAFFLE CAR--NO OPTIONS AT ALL. HOPE THIS HELPS AND CLEARS UP SOME ISSUES I HAVE READ. ALSO IF I CAN BE OR ANY HELP ON THE 70 PACE CARS PLEASE CONTACT ME.
KEITH COFFEY
[email protected]

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

Welcome aboard Keith!.
In case you're not aware, vehicles built in Canada or elsewhere but delivered new through a Canadian dealer had their RPO's and other info recorded..
If you have the Vin of the 4-Spd car you're researching the info's available today from GM Canada Vintage services..

http://www.gm.ca/gm/english/shopping/parts/vintage

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
~ Pete

PS - Please turn your Caps off when posting as a lot of us fellas here have old eyes that can't handle it..

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

THANKS PETE
FIRST IM A PHARMACIST AND HAVE ALWAYS TYPED IN CAPS DUE TO THE DIRECTIONS ON PRESCRIPTION BOTTLE LONG BEFORE COMPUTERS WERE AVALIABLE.A HABIT I CANT CHANGE. ITS EASIER TO READ THE DIRECTIOS THIS WAY. NOTHING PERSONAL OR YELLING YES A SAFTEY ISSUE.
AS FOR THE CANADA INFO I DO HAVE THE DOCUMENTS (PRINT OUT, VINS AND OPTIONS CODES)ON THE THREE 4SPD CARS SHIPPED TO CANADA 2-CUTLASS AND 1-442. I HAVE CALLED GM CANADA BUT THEY ARE OF NO HELP IN GETTING INFORMTION ON JUST HOW MANY Y74 CARS WEE SHIPPED THERE. INFACTS I FELT LIKE THE GUY WAS A JERK THAT I TALKED TO.
THNKS FOR THE INFO
KEITH

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OLDSPACECAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">THANKS PETE
FIRST IM A PHARMACIST AND HAVE ALWAYS TYPED IN CAPS DUE TO THE DIRECTIONS ON PRESCRIPTION BOTTLE LONG BEFORE COMPUTERS WERE AVALIABLE.A HABIT I CANT CHANGE. ITS EASIER TO READ THE DIRECTIOS THIS WAY. NOTHING PERSONAL OR YELLING YES A SAFTEY ISSUE.
AS FOR THE CANADA INFO I DO HAVE THE DOCUMENTS (PRINT OUT, VINS AND OPTIONS CODES)ON THE THREE 4SPD CARS SHIPPED TO CANADA 2-CUTLASS AND 1-442. I HAVE CALLED GM CANADA BUT THEY ARE OF NO HELP IN GETTING INFORMTION ON JUST HOW MANY Y74 CARS WEE SHIPPED THERE. INFACTS I FELT LIKE THE GUY WAS A JERK THAT I TALKED TO.
THNKS FOR THE INFO
KEITH </div></div>


It's very hard to read with the Caps on. This is a car forum with a lot of great and knowledable people not a pharmacy. Maybe you could break the habit for us. Thanks

Re: 1970 Olds 442 Pace Car - COPO?
 

Keith

Gm canada documentation will only break down cars sold in this countery by model number, not options. For example, they will show 100 1971 442 convertibles sold but cannot determine how many had the W30 option. You have to provide a specific serial number(as you have done). Data as to how many may have been sold with a specic option can only be done by extrapilation.
An example is what I have done on collecting data on the 110 1971 converts sold with W30, Canadas sales of converts is 110 out of 1304(the generally accepted number) Using the same base info w30 options went on 8.4% of converts. typically Canada sells 10% of production in a given model, this should indicate 8 or 9 cars were sold in canada as converts with the W30 option.
My research over 25 years of tracking down thses models has uncovered the following
1 sold new in BC
2 sold new in Newfoundland
3 sold new in Ontairo
2 sold new in Quebec.
Thats 8 and there may be one more I have not tracked down supporting the % theory.


Paul Martin