69 Camaro X22
 

Looks like some "$hit Happened" to this one. :)

VIN is 124379N567333 (mistyped in the ad as 124679N567333)
Trim tag is repro. Go figure with those colors.....

That is one rusty vin plate.

Can't be a repro tag Kurt; ad says "real deal X22 car."

For the novice what are clues for a repo trim tag?

This should be the sticker on the dash.

That's something they don't discuss...Joe

Who would repop a trim tag for frost green? I’m no expert, but that trim tag looks legit to me. The rivots look like they’ve been removed and reinstalled because they’re no longer filled. With that much rust on the car, that could have deteriorated like that on its own?

So how is Kurt saying repop?

Kurt may have a record of this car wearing a different tag sometime in its past.

If it wasnt for frost green cars ,there would be hardly any original motor/ survivor cars LOL

Agreed! I don’t mean to sound like I’m knocking Frost Green, etc. More and more, I’m liking those less common colors. My point was that the people that are faking cars seem to do so in the more desirable color combinations like re-sale red, etc.

Lots of things going on with this car. The trans-tunnel looks like it was cut for a 3-speed tranny. The left door looks like it originally was Frost green. The steering column is for a floor shift car. It looks like a automatic brake pedal but when I blow up the picture I'm not positive. The rear springs are the original type 5 leaf but the rear-end is a 10 bolt. It could have been changed because it has 2 u-bolts on each side instead of 1 u-bolt and 1 t-bolt. Needs pictures of the firewall, the exhaust plate on the rear frame rail if it has one, etc. etc.

Still waiting to hear what makes the data plate look suspect other than unfilled rivets. Granted I know there are experts on the history of these cars but just saying looks like a repop with out any detail makes me wonder of the validity of the statement.

EBAY Ad is pulled.

I have enough confidence in Kurt’s knowledge to take it at face value. As was mentioned before, if the nuances become public knowledge the counterfeiters get that much better at what they do.

X2

X3

Can’t disagree with that logic.

This is 100% a repop tag. I know why andI also don't want to reveal the tell tale sign on this one.

The Tag in question:

Not the first time for this topic here:

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=87858

Photo of an alleged real tag posted on page 2 of the thread.

Question, what is the first thing you guys look at that says it's a repo tag,besides the wrong rivots. Just curious. Thanks

Decades of research and data collection. I don't expect to hear any details from these guys. I consider Kurt's input a gift.

well i hope somebody somewhere has the information written down as we all get older and the keepers of knowledge will not share with the next generation of these cars, all knowledge will be lost.

th...the...the...that's all folks!

No That's not all there is folks.... Is this a fake body plate? Is it a repop body plate? Is there an issue with the line up of the VIN against the fisher body number on the body plate? Was the plate switched from a real car onto the hulk?

Kurt can tell us and so can Jonsey.

Man up boys..help the hobby out here!:biggthumpup:

PS. GM called it a body plate. The hobby made up the term "trim tag" later on.

I've always referred to them as the Fisher body tag.

The more information that is released as to "why" make it easier on the people who create these forgeries...Joe

Thanks Joe,

I get all of that. However I and others here want to have this explained by the two guys who said in definite terms that the body plate was a repop.

Why?

It may be best to pick up the phone and call so that the info isn’t publicized. I’m not even close to a beginner on this stuff but when I compare to an authentic one I see differences.
We need to keep the scumbag fraudulent punks on their toes!

who you gonna call...trim tag busters!

Kurt...

Just from what Kurt and Mike posted, I think I can answer most of the questions Phil asked:

1. Is this a fake body plate?
Yes. Kurt called it a repro. Mike called it a repop. That means a plate produced after the fact (most likely by Trimtags.com).

2. Is it a repop body plate?
Yes. Just a matter of semantics. Personally, I think terms "repop" and "repro" or even "reproduction" are too mild as descriptive terms regarding a plate that has been produced after the fact that is not original to the car. I always refer to it as a fake. But that's just me. I always know when Kurt uses the term "repro" exactly what he means.

3. Is there an issue with the line up of the VIN against the fisher body number on the body plate?
Not sure, but I doubt it. Most of the fake tags use the same ident number that was on the real tag. I could be wrong on this, but virtually every fake tag I have had any experience with used the same number as the real tag it replaced.

4. Was the plate switched from a real car onto the hulk?
No, or it would have been referred to as a "swapped tag", and not a repro or repop tag.

While I appreciate the demonstration in Apologetics I am well aware of the reasons that Lynn posted above.

However I am not the one out on a limb here stating conclusively that the body plate included with the auction creates a fraudulent looking sale.

Guys to be fair If I offer an opinion or the Norwood Retirees offer an opinion we are subjected to the virtual colonoscopy by a few of the aligned members of another forum.

-----------

So the question remains: Why is it a repop?

Is it the font?
The size and the shape variation of the embossment?

Cut us all in here.. or perhaps given the relative statistically small percentage of body plates in the CRG data base as compared to 1969 production -there may be some uncertainty as to the strength of the reproduction argument?

And there is the potential that I already know the guy who ran the embossing machine for Fisher Body at Norwood.. .

I think offering an informed opinion is a vastly safer position to take when you were not there and do not have first hand knowledge that you are willing to share

Framing a discussion as an informed opinion becomes critical when you will not state the basis for a hard claim.

The point is simple - there is no need to share this in a public forum. The CRG doesn’t get paid to appraise old Camaros and there’s no financial incentive in it for them, so Kurt would have no reason to misrepresent something he felt confident enough about to state here.

Let’s watch what we say here so guys like Kurt continue to speak openly.

It seems odd when someone makes a statement and someone wants some clarification everyone gets quiet and defensive. So who is really right at this point? I'm not stirring the pot just trying to understand why this is so secretive and why only a select view know or don't really know. We're all car guys just trying to understand and get smarter.

This is about as clear as can be stated why not share “ publicly”. I think it’s a fairly straightforward reason?

“The more information that is released as to "why" make it easier on the people who create these forgeries...Joe”

Because we have to assume this site, like many others, is frequented by a few unscrupulous people who seek this information to turn a profit. I don’t get why this is so surprising or contentious.

Hey folks-
to kind of stick a fork in this and call it done. I had posted the ebay listing because i was interested in the car, only reason being that it was represented as a X22 car, which would be perfect for the L78 "bitsa" powertrain i have sitting in my garage. My interest is i am 50 years old, a young buck compared to some folks here, and i want to expand my knowledge, not get in a pissing contest over who may be right or wrong.
To put this in perspective, i work for an OEM that if one...just one dealer questions something that is 100 percent correct, i still get questioned on it, so i always want to know "why"
As far as criminals trolling the site, i would not worry about data plate information the way some folks here rip a car up one side and down the other from a few pictures.
so get off the high horses, the cars with provenance will always have it, 100% all the time, it is as simple as black and white, we are talking about a "grey" car here it will never have the provenance to be a 100k car.
I took it upon myself to do a side by side comparision of the data plate from the auction, and the data plate from my old LM1 car. I was able to spot some differences, weather i am right or wrong....now i can be dangerous and say "from my 35 years with these cars" what is a real plate or a repop.
shame we can't all get along in this together.....but some folks will always be
"these are my toys, and you can't play with them"

When Roy Sinor was with NCRS, they found something like 29 data points on the fake tags (or plates) and were able to spot them easily. After a lot of clamoring and pleading (I believe mostly from guys who bought cars with fake tags unknowingly, and refused to believe they were duped) they released information on just a few (something like 6... would have to ask Roy again). Within weeks the fake tag makers had corrected all the issues made public.

Is that what we want? Do we really want every little tag pointed out on a public forum? The fakers will then be able to make the perfect fake.

I know I don't want that.

Chris,

You did the right thing with the comparisons of the tags and you learned something from that.

I do not believe this is a pissing contest at all and I really believe if you sent Kurt, Jonsey or others your question they would gladly speak with you on that.... Especially if you were interested in the car.

Any of your posts that I have read have always been kind, informative posts and I dont believe anyone is not commenting on your questions to be a donkey.

I truly believe they are really trying not to have the info in an open forum for some jag offs to get an education on how to perfect their "craft"