Rick Treworgy Muscle Car Auction Jan 2021
 

Friday Day 1

Some crazy prices.

If the white 67 Z is real and original engine etc., it is the bargain of the day so far.

The Z16 just went for $170+buyers premium.

1969 Trans Am went for $155+

1958 impala resto mod - sold at $230,000+

The black 70Z that is supposed to be gold, with no original drivetrain went for $52k! I’m in shock!
Buddy

2006 all over again. Back then it was a big housing market bubble that burst just two years later. Is there something similar on the horizon now?

Cortez Berger “copo” did a moon shot. X-44, non 9737.

I thought there were quite a few moon shots yet the z16 Chevelle seemed fair but no expert on their value. Prices are up overall!

That seems about where I thought these cars were valued , but the two that ran back to back last week w/No Reserve at Kissimee only did $88 & $98 with fee's ? is that a error in the sold results or did they only sell for that ???

Saturday 1/23/21

Hammered Schwinn Prices Today:
---------------------------
Cotton Picker $1,700
Grey Ghost $1,500
Lemon Peeler $5.500
Grape Krate $4.000
Pea Picker $7,000
Orange Krate $11,000
Apple Krate $12,000

And each and every one of them is a Chinese repro.

If anyone would like one, I would be happy to sell you mine, as we have at least one of each, N.O.S. for half of these bid prices.

I am of course, j/k.

My Son commented that if we were to extrapolate these prices to what we have in our personal collection, the value would be well in excess of $1,000,000.00.

Bashton

Why would anyone buy repop Bikes for that kind of money?

I had a few car buddies....leave early in disappointment, as the prices were just silly stupid.

Dan

Coater brake Krates for that money.LOL

Because the listing states "original frames with new parts" Don't know or care if that's correct but if Bob is correct which I am sure that he is then the buyers will not be happy.

The Road Art pieces were mostly Taiwan made or just common mass produced as well.
Can't believe what those hallow empty gas station pumps sold for.

IMO there's something fishy going on here at this auction, prices of some of these cars were bringing more than double of what the cars were actually worth. Examples:

1979 Z28 44K
1969 Z28 non cross ram 143K
1969 Trans Am 165K
1969 GTO Judge 181.5 K
1966 GTO 165K
1974 Corvette 44K
1975 Corvette 49.5 K 74 to the end of the C3 were some of the worst Corvettes ever made
All of the El Caminos

Many of the cars I looked at in pictures were poorly detailed and had incorrect parts and if I were able to be there in person I'm sure I would have been even more disappointed. Both 70 Camaros had the wrong steering wheel which is a pretty big detail since 70 had a 1 year only steering wheel.

I just don't understand what went on down there because quite a number of those cars sold for for way more than they were worth. Sure, some of them were very nice cars and brought all the money but many brought way more than they should have.

Anybody else have any thoughts?

My friend who lives down there & worked for Rick,said the in person buyers were no one he recognized as locals.He said the majority of the people who knew all these cars closely by coming to Ricks carshows/tours regularly,were not the ones paying the extraordinary prices.He can't speak for the phone/internet bidders,but just the ones he saw there in person.

Definitely something fishy going on!!!!
Prices are out of reasoning. Some cars getting great $$, Camaros, that are hardly considered collectable. Corvettes not getting even what would be considered a starting bid at Barrett Jackson.
When is an L89 worth more than a ZL1?
Were than any guys from the website there on the Saturday that can comment?

----Well! We know one thing for sure. The ZL1 is positively not original. If it had a prayer of being original it would have certainly been over a million.....Bill S

Sure makes you wonder ?? But that's easy to say when you are sitting at home. But I was under the impression that was the car sold by the IRS years back, advertised as "one of the two".

As I said it would be interesting to hear from someone that was there...

----I'm pretty sure it was the yellow ZL1 that the IRS got hold of. Current owner bought at that auction.....Bill S

I'm waiting to see the window sticker on the blue "ZL1", that would be interesting.

----It wasn't on display according to Scott Freese, and I can only make the extrapolation that it would have to be made up.....Bill S

Actually Coaster Krates are pretty cool and quite rare, but the point is these are Chinese Repro's, most made in 1999-2000.

They are great "riders" but by no means valuable collectors items. The only real "Limited Edition" was the 1999 Grape, which they made 600, I believe.

BA

and a low price on a very nice Z16. Odd. That Z16 should have gone way higher. The 69 Judge had all kinds of wrong with it and it got a big number

You got the cart in front of the horse again.... sitting at home in Michigan freezing your azz off.
I've been there 3 times and saw the car all three times. I spent some time looking at the one time. I spent all my time on Lt1's, but some of the stuff goes hand in hand. I did not see ANYTHING that jumped out saying it was "a built" car. I still think it was the "drug" car.
But as I said in another post... How did they keep track of these cars? Duntov was sliding them out the back door to Greenwood, Penske, Garner etc, building the engines "on the sly". Who knows, we all thought there were ONLY two (2)!!

Hell, twenty years ago you couldn't find a set of BB aluminum heads. Now just google them and fleabay has 3-4 + sets for sale all the time.

I'd still take a 70-72 ZR2 all day and run your BB car... Been there done that!!

Back door Deal.... Still smells fishy. It was front and center for the last 3 years plus. The prices were way off on stuff....

----I didn't think I would have to apologize for living in Michigan, but sorry, I guess. I shouldn't have said I "probably" know that the yellow car was bought thru an IRS auction. I know that car and a bunch of it's history really well. I know the the current owner, I know the former owner that unearthed the car and the original motor. As well, I know, very well, the shop in Fla that took care of the car for the owner who got busted and lost the car
----I guess it's at least remotely possible that a former owner of this blue clone also got caught up with an IRS problem and also went up for auction. Anything can happen.......Bill S

I agree with Frank that the Z16 was very fairly purchased compared to so many other cars that went for large sums. I’ve been there twice and many cars were not top shelf restorations.

Crazy prices. I was there in 2019 and looked at all of these cars. 69 Judge is my favorite car so I spent a lot of time checking it out. There was absolutely nothing that screamed $180k+ for that car. Low option car that didn't really blow me away.

$117k for the 2002 ZL1 seems crazy to me too. Especially for an automatic.

I remember seeing the McDorman 2002 ZL1 selling for 97.500 in 2010. They fired that up and you could hear it over everything across the parking lot.

Corvette ZL1 History
 

So....LT1Vette put me on to this thread. He was looking for some more info on the number of Corvette ZL1s and some of the background. He mentioned that there had been a large number of replies but I'm not finding them. It's probably easier just to post a reply here and see what happens. In the Corvette world there are a couple "sources" that are generally taken as being "gospel"

The first is Karl Ludvigsen and his book "Corvette: America's Star-Spangled Sports Car." He cites two ZL1 Corvettes as leaving the factor with "production paperwork". The yellow car now owned by Roger Judski is accepted as being one.....it has a long and detail provenance. The second car is a matter of some uncertainty. Many people have claimed that it is the white Corvette that was passed (most recently) from Otis Chandler to Kevin Suydam (WA). This is not universally accepted. However, in fairness, I must say that, at this time, there is no other claimant that gathif free of debate.

There are a number of other Corvettes that are presented as factory original ZL1 vehicles. The Treworgy (blue) car is one. But it generally agreed amongst the people I know that it is not. There is the orange automatic drag car sold from John Maher to Bruce Perrone. It has a good story but the NCRS will not judge the car....last I heard. Another car that is not currently around was the actual ZL1 mule. Then there are several replicas (of varying quality) represented as a ZL1 by the owner but generally dismissed by the Corvette community.

Now.... another authority on the ZL1 engine is Ken Kayser who began working at the Tonawanda engine plant in Rochester as his first job with GM. ken has a pretty good library and his own memories to serve as the basis for the many articles that he writes. Ken wrote a rather extensive and technical book on his life in GM. He provides articles to VETTE VUES on a regular basis.

One such article dealt with Corvette Big Blocks. In this article, there are some gems hidden among the wide range of engines he covered. It deals with a series of ZL1 engines sent to the assembly plant to update some L88 cars to ZL1 status. These cars were never sold and, as it turns out, the assembly plant was instructed to restore the L88 cars to their original format and send the engines back to Tonawanda. It seems that this didn't happen and that a number of cars may have been sent to Warren (MI) to be used as engineering cars.

I'll stop this thread right here. Ken is looking to go back over his work and do a new series of stories attempting to isolate these cars/engines and to put some more meat on the bones.

I've scanned the story that Ken had printed in VETTE VUES and can email to folks interested in reading it. Email me ...via regular email.... at [email protected]

Since the article dealt with a large number of different experiences, I've highlighted the points that are relevant to the ZL1 story in yellow highlighter. But you still have to go slow and read carefully. Don't jump to conclusions.

Ken's next stories in VETTE VUES will attempt to bring some light to the story.

Interesting. I read Ken’s bio that was in with the ZL1 paperwork at the Musclecar City auction. I believe the it stated that Ken was a GMI student at the Tonawanda engine plant (which is located in Tonawanda - not Rochester) starting in 1968. I was also a GMI student sponsored, for part of my curriculum, out of the Tonawanda complex. I’m a little older than Ken, but we should have crossed paths at Tonawanda. We all met in John Hamacher’s office occasionally. Do you know what Ken’s job(s) were at Tonawanda during the 70s? Just wondering how, as a student, he had “hands on” knowledge of the ZL1 program. Wondering also why Ken feels that “it seems that this didn’t happen” (ZL1 engines weren’t returned to Tonawanda).
I'm aware of Ken's assignments later in his career - just focusing on the ZL1 production period when Ken was only at the plant 1/2 of the time, and even then as a co-op student.