Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions please.
 

I had a friend that had a very nice and original type Judge RAIV, it wasn't his fault but it got wrecked really bad from the rear. It was so far gone that the body shop talked him into replacing the entire body and frame, then sticking his VIN tag on the regular GTO along with all the Judge stuff and drivetrain. I know this is legal in some states under certain conditions. I know that due to fire and rust this may appeal to some people too.

But I feel that at this point, it has gone too far. It's just a paper car at this point, and doesn't appeal to me. Also there is a certain amount of deception in this, whether it be in the begining of the body replacement or after time and ownership changes (where the nature of the car is conviently forgotten about).

I would like to hear some pro's and con's on this, if anyone is willing to share. I would like to know if I'm wrong compared to the majority of you.

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions please.
 

Touchy subject.
We don't seem to mind replacing virtualy any or all the sheet metal on a car for restoration purposes but frown upon tagging a car even if it would make for a better resto.

If you found a totally rusted out '69 L78, Z28, pace car or COPO with all original dated components & swapped them into a rust free body it wouldn't be a "original", even if you went as far as swapping the front cowl & with the VIN, but if you find one without any of the original components & you built one you could sell it as "original". Isn't this is a bit goofy? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
There must be a lot of cars that have been swapped out & sold. How can you tell? All those Tags with VIN's on ebay are obviously being used with that intent, we all know that & of course it comes down to money. But how do you prove it?

We would all want the original body but with todays welding technology & a good bodyman I think you'd never know.

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions please.
 

Here in OKLA it is against the law. Somewhere down the line someone may check the body Vin stamped on the firewall and see that it does not match the one on the post. The cops will impound it and you will have hell getting it back unless you have some mighty good records and then they may not let you have it. At the very least they will remove the main VIN # (transplanted VIN plate on the door post) and assign a OK state # to it, which will destroy most of the value of that car. They should have cut it across the floor and top and replaced it from there back. I saw a local dealer buy some cars that were stolen and the VIN didn't match and he lost every one. They will go by the stamped cowl # and it dam well better match the one on the post. I think it is a Federal crime now that I think of it to have anything to do with changing the VIN #.

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions please.
 

Don't you think it's pretty easy now to cut out the Firewall VIN & cut that piece into another firewall?

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions please.
 

Larry

It was out of state. But there was a guy that is dead now; Mitch Adams, who lived here in Tulsa. He had a dark brown RAIV regular GTO that the exact same thing happened to as for the wreck and rearend, they did just what you said to that car. I saw the pics in progress and it was amazing.

But once again, that really takes away from the originality of the car. I am generally not interested in anything that has had Quarter replacement. Much less the entire rear section of a car. And with all the rebuilding going on now; it is hard to tell what is real, especially for the buyer that doesn't know what to look for.

Oh, and I do know some one in Tulsa that is probably doing a tag replacement on a Lt. Blue 70 Judge IV with pink stripes, I was VERY dissappointed in the approach he took on the car. I fed him the lead of where it was, it had been sitting in a feild since 1976 and the rust had taken it's toll on the car. What a shame too. Several times over the years I had thought about buying a tarp for the car even though I didn't own it, sure wish I would have now.

Steve

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions please.
 

With all the welding techniques available now, I think anything is possible and some un detectable.

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions please.
 

HI, I know of alot of this. Although I feel it is a shame to let certain RARE cars go to the graveyard. This only is fair, & makes the legit cars worth more. http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenk...mlins/flag.gif http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenk...mlins/flag.gif I believe they should. I don't think anyone would want the revin, but atleast tell the buyer up front. I think alot of these cars out there have had the revin treatment.

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions please.
 

I had 2 real 69 RA III TAs, both ROUGH!! The 4spd was restorable, but back in 1995, they did not bring that much, &amp; cost of resto far out weighed value. I found an 100% all orig. 69 RAIV TA, alot of orig. paint. I got it, &amp; parted both 69s. The car is now done to concours level, so much esaier , when you start w/super clean western car. http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenk...mlins/flag.gif http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenk...ins/3gears.gif <font color="blue"> </font>

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions please.
 

Whith the value of muscle cars today.
Nobody will devalue a car they're selling by telling you it's been tagged http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenk...ins/tongue.gif http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenk...thumbsdown.gif http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenk...aemlins/no.gif

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions please.
 

It is absolutely illegal everywhere to do what your "friend" did. And if by some remote chance he found a state that had some type of exploitable loophole somewhere in the law, UNDER FEDERAL LAW IT IS A FELONY! The removal of a number used for vehicle identification purposes (and note that this can also apply to firewall tags!) and placing it upon a vehicle that it did not originally come on, and then representing the vehicle as that previous vehicle, is a felony. Period. It's like identity theft for cars. The car is subject to being seized and confiscated as contraband material and the owner who authorized it, as well as the individuals at the shop who performed the VIN swap, can be prosecuted under those same statutes as well as the relevant conspiracy statutes. You may ask why would the Feds bother with one car? Well, that may have been true years ago when the cars weren't that valuable, but now when you are talking about swapping the vins on say, a 6 cyl Camaro body with the vin from a wrecked ZL1. The result is a $200,000+ vehicle, and that will get the attention of any U.S Attorney very quicky who is looking for an easy conviction stat...BTW, feel free to tell us all the name of the shop so we can all avoid this place like the plague! The last thing anyone needs is to have the reputation of their car's legitimacy tainted by a shop that would do vin swaps, because once an investigation starts with one of these shops, all the records get examined and all vehicles "restored" by them get examined as well. -NJSteve

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions please.
 

Good lord man, I didn't do it. I'm against it. I Feel like your trying to burn me at the stake. I don't know the name of the shop, I don't even know what state it was in. And this is just one car, this goes on all the time everywhere.

I have been told by several people that it is legal under certain conditions in certain states. I can't verify that, not legally.

Whether it's legal or not, I wish it wouldn't be done.

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions please.
 

Sorry about that Steve. I just got my legal hormones going there for a minute! and I didn't even use any of my expensive Michael Jackson-like legal words like "spurious". But seriously there was a guy a year or two ago out west who decided to restamp a vin plate on a barracuda convertible and make it a hemicuda convertible (not a smart thing to begin with since all of them are pretty much accounted for). They siezed the car and he was eventually convicted of the felony. I just get on my soapbox whenever the subject comes up. I'd rather be yelled at for being too forceful in my arguments against number swapping in the process of advising against it, than have someone unknowingly/innocently get hammered in a courtroom for swapping tags. Mea Culpa -NJSteve

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions please.
 

LOL... ok no problem. I felt bad after posting the last one, thought maybe I took it wrong.

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions please.
 

Just for grins, this is the RAIV that sat in a feild down in Muskogee since 1976. Yes that's right, an Okie from Muskogee GTO. Lt Blue is under the green and the pink stripes were still on the inside of the jams. HD M21 and HD 390. There were several things wrong with it, namely rust from sitting on the ground for 25 years.

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions please.
 

Rob, they prob. would not. But I'm sure legal authorites would love to talk w/them. Don't get be wrong it's ashame to let any rare car get turned into a tuna can, but it's not right to switch tags &amp; pawn off a car to someone who does not know. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions please.
 

I agree with that, except the tagging is convieniently forgotten after the first sale. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/crazy.gif

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions ple
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just for grins, this is the RAIV that sat in a feild down in Muskogee since 1976. Yes that's right, an Okie from Muskogee GTO. Lt Blue is under the green and the pink stripes were still on the inside of the jams. HD M21 and HD 390. There were several things wrong with it, namely rust from sitting on the ground for 25 years.

[/ QUOTE ]
***************
Steve,
I'm sure the GTO is now out of the field and getting the attention it deserves from a dedicated GTO hobbiest?

Also, there was a debate going on in HPP earlier this year because of engine re-stamping. What about this problem?
People are stamping ID#s on Pontiac blocks to make them "Numbers matching" cars.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

I know a guy who claims to do this on a regular basis!

~GOAT72

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions ple
 

There's been links from this site to ebay auctions in the past where gang stamps have been sold. Remember our Canadian Yenko 2's? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif I believe he was one of the buyers.
It's always buyer beware.

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions ple
 

I was told verbally that Black Gold accepts engine re stampings, I haven't looked in my rule book to verify that.

Even if it's there, I don't accept it.

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions ple
 

NCRS (where I been a member for several years) accepts restamped engines for judging so long as they are struck "factory typical". I, however, believe that when a VIN appears on a block, that it is implied that it is the original engine that the car left the factory with.
A large percentage of state vehicle laws that I have researched forbid the stamping of a VIN by an individual on any drivetrain/body part. Some, like Illinois, allow it if done in the presence of the proper state authority. In Illinois it is still a violation of the motor vehicle law to even posses "rosette" rivets.

Re: Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions ple
 

There is a law on the books in Okla that says you must transfer the # over to the new motor if you change it out. Just goes to show the different states have totally different ideas about it.