Yellow Canadian L89
 

I saw a very nice looking L89 Camaro at the GM show in Oshawa Ontario this past weekend and was just wondering if anyone knows the history of the car ?

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3...ol78018db7.jpg
By steadyj17, shot with DSC-W5 at 2007-09-01

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/12/copol78019mw1.jpg
By steadyj17 at 2007-09-01

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5...ol78021hj3.jpg
By steadyj17, shot with DSC-W5 at 2007-09-01

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/7...ol78014mr8.jpg
By steadyj17, shot with DSC-W5 at 2007-09-01

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/7...ol78015rx6.jpg
By steadyj17, shot with DSC-W5 at 2007-09-01

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/8...ol78016lq6.jpg
By steadyj17, shot with DSC-W5 at 2007-09-01

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

Car is for sale on another website as well. Nice to see rare cars with docs . http://www.camaros.net/classifieds/s...130&cat=44 Ad says walnut wheel ,im guessing it should be a rosewood by dec 68 unless Canada did things differently .

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

Trin Tag is not authentic!

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

Thats a repro trim tag if I ever saw one! I am guessing that the car is not an original L-89 or a 396 car for that matter.

Paul

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

-------So you are saying the Canadian paperwork is also suspect??? Could this be an example of a damaged or lost trim tag???.......Bill S

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

Kind of like the HO 69 Yenko mentioned in another thread?

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

The best way to find out about a car is to track it's history. The car is owned by Richard English (RARE Z/28) of Camaro Heaven. He had purchased the car from Matt Langford (d_n_m69). I believe it was Matt who restored the car. Matt, who did you buy the car from and what happened to the original trim tag?

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am guessing that the car is not an original L-89 or a 396 car for that matter

[/ QUOTE ] Just because the trim tag was changed doesnt mean the canada papers are not legit. The trim tag is meaningless to documenting the car as an L89 anyway. If the trim tag was missing it would still be fine if the canada papers are legit. Im sure any potential buyers will check vins and pay the 40.00 to GM canada.

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am guessing that the car is not an original L-89 or a 396 car for that matter

[/ QUOTE ] Just because the trim tag was changed doesnt mean the canada papers are not legit. The trim tag is meaningless to documenting the car as an L89 anyway. If the trim tag was missing it would still be fine if the canada papers are legit. Im sure any potential buyers will check vins and pay the 40.00 to GM canada.

[/ QUOTE ]

True but any sign of a fake trim tag is always cause for concern with respect to rebodying, regardless of how many docs you have. Not saying this car is a rebody but finding out where the car originally came from would help authenticate this car.

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

i find it strange that this car and the green COPO beside it both have fake trim tags !

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/7...8010sf5.th.jpg

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/4...8003vy2.th.jpg

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

Obvious repop tag, I will refrain from calling it a fake, they way overdid the sealant on the rivets, but atleast they used some.
Mike A

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

I do not own the L89 for sale! I do however have a fully documented original body, original engine Copo for sale. I would like for anyone interested to personally come and see my car. I have every stich of documentation and paperwork from previous owners. In addition to that I have the entire restoration very well photographed from start to finish. I find it very interesting that the people questioning the authenticity of things neither own a rare car and in most cases have never actually built a car of any description! Just an observation! I would gladly pay Mr.Jerry M's fee to document my car should someone be serious about purchasing. If there are any other questions about my cars or the quality of restoration please refer to the previous thread about my car when it was for sale last year. That should clear up any questions about its authenticity.

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

The only question is where are all the original trim tags these days! Its too easy to build a car with only documentation, especially in Canada. As in the 5 ZL1's registered last year by one owner, its way too easy to register a car with no history in some provinces in Canada.
Only complete owner history will verify many of these cars.
as always do your homework on these big dollar restored cars.

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

I am having a hard time understanding why some people get there shorts in a bunch when the obvious is brought to light.
Whatever this L89 car is or is not.......IT HAS A RE POP TRIM TAG ON IT !!!!!!
Send the pic to CGR and they will tell you the same thing, Jerry might even chime.
If you are going to put out a world class car like this L89, be ready to do some fast talking about the trim tag.
If it was replaced because the old on was jacked up, just say so.
Thanks for the rant.
Mike A

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

Mr. English, you asked us to refer to your previous post about your COPO to clear up any questions we may have, so I did:

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat...e=1&fpart=1

After reading it, I am puzzled. You said in the post from last year that you took parts of the car that were on Ebay and combined them with the original stolen car which you found. If so, why is there a fake trim tag on your COPO? I would think that if you had found the original car, the trim tag would still be on it when you found it.

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

R.Peters, would you please pass the popcorn? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

Just curious what would your original engine have stamped on the deck of the block?

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

I'm confused, I thought there was only one documented canadian ZL1. Whats the story on the other 4, are they canadian?

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

Insert popcorn smiley here :grin:

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm confused, I thought there was only one documented canadian ZL1. Whats the story on the other 4, are they canadian?

[/ QUOTE ]

In 69 there were several ZL1s (5, I think?) that were stolen from a dealership never to be seen again (this was after they sat for an extended time due to the unbelievable sticker price). Speculation over the years is that the theft was staged and that they were crushed for an insurance settlement on the cars since no one was buying them.

Recently someone in Canada applied for titles for all 5 VINs. So, the going theory is that they are creating a papertrail for non-existant cars in the future anticipation of cloning them and passing them off as real. Which is rather dumb since the moment one of them surfaces, they will be siezed and the winner will be the insurance company that originally settled the claim. And if you think that's unlikely, just look what happens any time a large sunken treasure is located. You have insurance companies from claims made 500 years ago claiming their maritime rights over the recovered booty. So, a 38 year old claim is a cakewalk for them to research.

The guy registering these titles is basically creating his own do-it-yourself, self-incrimination kit. Not too swift in a legal sense. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

Steve,

That's an interesting perspective.

Steve

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

[ QUOTE ]
As in the 5 ZL1's registered last year by one owner

[/ QUOTE ] Not to mention the possibility that someone else did the same thing as well and you dont know about it . There actually could be a few of each??

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

[ QUOTE ]
Its too easy to build a car with only documentation, especially in Canada. As in the 5 ZL1's registered last year by one owner, its way too easy to register a car with no history in some provinces in Canada.


[/ QUOTE ]
GM Canada Documentation tells you what options came with the VIN but buyers should always verify the actual car eg the VIN derivatives on the firewall etc. In the province of Ontario from what I heard lately it is difficult to register an old VIN without proper title and the actual car.

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

If this is true, it could be an interesting scenario if the insurance company went out of business or sold. There is a very real possibility that no insurance company makes claim to the vehicles.

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

[ QUOTE ]
Car is for sale on another website as well. Nice to see rare cars with docs . http://www.camaros.net/classifieds/s...130&cat=44 Ad says walnut wheel ,im guessing it should be a rosewood by dec 68 unless Canada did things differently .

[/ QUOTE ]

That's weird. The ad has been pulled after 3 days since this thread has come out. You figure that the owner would use this opportunity to come out and discuss the car and it's abiguities instead of making it disappear for a while.

Nobody who has anything to do with this L89 wants to come forward and discuss the car. Why is that? Such a beautiful car! People would usually be proud to come forward and say I own it or I restored it. Instead, complete silence........

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm confused, I thought there was only one documented canadian ZL1. Whats the story on the other 4, are they canadian?

[/ QUOTE ]

The 5 they are talking about are these:

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/show.../page/1#197782

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

[ QUOTE ]
.... Speculation over the years is that the theft was staged and that they were crushed for an insurance settlement on the cars since no one was buying them....

[/ QUOTE ]

I must correct you Steve. Motown Madman has all 5 sitting in a barn somewhere! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

Beautiful job on the L-89 car even if the trim tag is fake. Did anyone notice that the putty used on both the L-89 and Green COPO look the same? Did the same person restore both cars? I believe the putty or filler was installed right after the rivets and then the black firewall paint was applied. The putty on these cars looks like an afterthought.

Paul

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

[ QUOTE ]
If this is true, it could be an interesting scenario if the insurance company went out of business or sold. There is a very real possibility that no insurance company makes claim to the vehicles.

[/ QUOTE ]

No such animal. If an insurance company closes it's doors, all the claims, policies, assets and liabilities get sold to/assigned to a sucessor company. That is part of insurance law/regulations. That is why the treasure hunters have such a headache. Remember the Atocha?

http://www.newworldtreasures.com/atochastory.htm

http://www.melfisher.com/

I think it was 20 years for all the claims to be settled between the insurance companies, countries and the IRS being involved.

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

[ QUOTE ]
Beautiful job on the L-89 car even if the trim tag is fake. Did anyone notice that the putty used on both the L-89 and Green COPO look the same? Did the same person restore both cars? I believe the putty or filler was installed right after the rivets and then the black firewall paint was applied. The putty on these cars looks like an afterthought.

Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

You could always try to perform a fingerprint comparison of the thumb prints in the two car's putty-filled rivets!

By the way, I wouldn't put too much nefarious evidentiary value in rivet putty: when you strip a firewall with chemical stripper you have to dig the original putty out of those rivets because it will act like a sponge and hold the stripper residue forever. When I cleaned and stripped the upper cowl on my T/A, I ran into the same problem. So I now have the dreaded thumbprint-puttied rivets on my car, too! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Before stripping:

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3...rewalltag1.jpg

After stripping. Looks like a completely different tag once all the paint layers are gone:

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3.../dtatatag3.jpg

After paint, before thumb-applied putty:

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3...rewalltop5.jpg

And for security reasons I wont be showing my thumb-printed puttied rivets for fear of someone attempting to match my thumb puttied rivets to other less scrupulous rivet thumb putty application technicians' wares.

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

The ZL1s in question were at Merollis Chev in Detroit:

#11 N609016
#24 N609838
#32 N610515
#37 N612963
#50 N620498

#11 was recovered quickly and has been in Ohio with the same owner for many years. #24 was recovered and scrapped in MA in the early '70s. The remainder show no history at all but were not titled to an insurance company when I was chasing them years ago meaning they were recovered and processed. #43 N615362 was privately owned when it was stolen off the lot at Hauser Chev in PA and is still registered to an insurance company indicating it was never recovered.

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

If they were not titled to an insurance company after the loss that would most likely mean the rights to the cars were at the time of the theft, and still are, in Chevrolet's hands. That means there are tons of internal Chevy/GM lawyers just standing by, waiting for the minute one of these cars surfaces and Chevy wants it back for their historical collection.

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

--------Hey Steve,,,Im wondering what the 6 and 1 mean that are stamped inward on your tag???........Bill S

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

My guess is that they are inspectors' stamps of some sort. No more "P" "T" or "B" paint stamps in 1972, maybe this replaced them.

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

I would guess they were stamped by the dealer as a type of inventory.

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

[ QUOTE ]
I do not own the L89 for sale!.....

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad Richard! I just assumed that you were the owner since you were the one trying to sell it in Hemmings. Here's some free advertising anyways:

http://www.camaros.net/showroom/data...um/CDN_L89.JPG

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

Nope, they were ripped from a dealer meaning the dealer owned them. If they were still in limbo they would be registered to whomever paid the claim. Since they weren't [I ran the VINs several times] the conclusion is they were recovered and processed through an auction. One of them was used to bash open the gate and may have been scrapped. The VINs were not known until the early '80s so it is possible the others were rebuilt, driven daily for many years and scrapped. Or maybe became race cars-having walked the pits at dragstrips countless times I know there are many 69s with no VIN plate. One of them could easily have been a Merollis ZL1.

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

[I'll get this one for ya, Hylton! LOL!!]

Sorry to hijack(!), but let's keep the misplaced ZL-1 chatter in the appropriate thread, okie dokie?! It will make it easier to find down the road when these things turn up (ha ha!)... 5 newly found ZL-1s

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

[ QUOTE ]
[I'll get this one for ya, Hylton! LOL!!]

Sorry to hijack(!), but let's keep the misplaced ZL-1 chatter in the appropriate thread, okie dokie?! It will make it easier to find down the road when these things turn up (ha ha!)... 5 newly found ZL-1s

[/ QUOTE ]

But is Hylton OK with that...? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Yellow Canadian L89
 

[ QUOTE ]
I do not own the L89 for sale! I do however have a fully documented original body, original engine Copo for sale. I would like for anyone interested to personally come and see my car. I have every stich of documentation and paperwork from previous owners. In addition to that I have the entire restoration very well photographed from start to finish. I find it very interesting that the people questioning the authenticity of things neither own a rare car and in most cases have never actually built a car of any description! Just an observation! I would gladly pay Mr.Jerry M's fee to document my car should someone be serious about purchasing. If there are any other questions about my cars or the quality of restoration please refer to the previous thread about my car when it was for sale last year. That should clear up any questions about its authenticity.

[/ QUOTE ]


Nobody was answering Terry's initial question so on my way home, I pulled a UVIP on the car so that it can be clear who owns it and who this "one owner" was.

For those of you not living in Ontario, a UVIP is a document which can be purchased by anyone (even online) who is considering purchasing an Ontario based vehicle. Many states have a similar program and I do recommend spending the extra time and money when buying an expensive car.

All that is required is a VIN number OR the license plate number. This document identifies the car in question, whether there are any liens on it, it's current owner and the cars previous owners. In other words, you get vehicle history.

Here is the UVIP for this car:

http://www.camaros.net/showroom/data...L89_UVIP_1.jpg

http://www.camaros.net/showroom/data...L89_UVIP_2.jpg

As indicated in Section 2 above, the current owner is Phillip Robinson who is Richard English's business partner at Camaro Heaven (unless things have changed). Phillip took ownership of the car on June 6, 2006.

Section 3 of an Ontario UVIP identifies all previous owners of a car. Richard English took ownership of this car on July 15, 2005 from David James Mattina and Mathew G. Langford. David James Mattina and Mathew G. Langford registered this car on Spetember 17, 2004.

So what surprised me is when I compared the information on this official state document to the selling information on the Hemmings ad, a few questions came to light:

1. The Hemmings ad indicates this car as being a one owner car yet when I look at the UVIP, it was co-owned by 2 guys. Did the two guys buy the car together in 1969? They would have had to if the Hemmings claim is true.

2. Why if David Mattina / Matthew Langford were in fact the original owners as claimed, did they only register the car on September 17, 2004, 35 years after buying it? I would think the car would have been in a state not requiring a full resto if that was the case.

3. In the Hemmings ad it mentions that seller is in possesion of a letter from the original owner indicating that the M22 "transmission was replaced after just a few weeks of service". Who might that person be?

4. Why does the car have a fake trim tag on it if it has so few owners? Who put the fake trim tag on the car?

5. Which one of the 3(4) owners restored the car?

This are just questions that came to mind after reviewing this public/published information.

How come the owner can't come onto this site and clear up any issues? You are trying to sell a car for $225,000!!!! Do you think people are stupid enough to hand over that kind of cake without the questions above being answered? Mr. Robinson, if you want to sell your car, I suggest you respond to my questions.