The most "significant" Chevrolet performance car.
 

In one of the Mecum threads an interesting topic was brought up. Someone made the comment that the blue RS ZL1 was "the most significant muscle car in existence" or something to that effect. Then our esteemed Mike G. disagreed and said that there were cars in his collection that were of less value that he would not trade evens for on that ZL1. This is a very interesting topic. Everybody seems to have an opinion as to what the most "significant" GM performance car is. Significant could have many meanings. It could be a race car, it could be a car that started a trend in the automobile industry, something rare, etc.

Lets have an exercise. What do you feel is the most significant single CHEVROLET performance car in existence? In keeping with the tradition of this site, just Chevrolets please, as we know there are countless "significant" Fords, Mopars, Pontiac's, Olds, etc. What do you think is the end all be all of Chevrolet performance cars?

My vote for one particular car is the #1 Dick Harrell ZL1 race car.

If I were to go a certain type of car I would say the 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air. I feel that car is probably most known by all as THE most recognized American Performance car of all time.

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance car.
 

Frank I would vote for the blue R/S ZL1 that just sold. About 15 years ago I walked past that car 3 times at a car show here in Huntington Beach and never gave it a second look. It was early, the hood was closed and I do not remember anybody around the car. When I walked past it the fourth time, the hood was up and everything changed. This was the first real ZL1 I had ever seen in person and boy did it make an impression on me then.
Mark Sheppard

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance car.
 

We're opening a HUGE can of worms here.

One for the upcoming loooooooooooooooooooooong list would be the '57 Chevy/Corvette F.I.: the first to hit the magical One HP per Cubic Inch.

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance c
 

I think I had commented that my opinion that the RS ZL1 is probably the most valuable production Chevrolet. My comparison would be against the # 1 ZL1 in stock form and I would rather take the RS ZL1 especially in the unrestored condition that it is in. I would also take it over either of the ZL1 Vettes. One has no paperwork and I think the other is restored.

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One of the Grand Sports. Would lean toward the blue RS ZL-1 musclecar-wise, tho.

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Charley or anyone who knows, other than the blue ZL1's amazing originality, what is the story behind the car? Any significant history or events involving the car?

Interesting so far guys! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

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This is the one that had the "Most" Impact on me growing up in Chicago.....From my perspective......The Sickness started with the 62 409 "Bubbletop" cars......I know, I know.....But for me .....this is where it started and I have a real soft spot for them........There was a guy in the Neighborhood by the name of Bill Bretz that had a duplicate of the Car in the Pic........Ran it at the International Amphitheater and the Grove and was the Fastest Car around at the time........Pretty Cool and Good Memories

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2.../Jandas103.jpg

Ken

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Frankie,

Pretty good chapter about the blue RS ZL1 in my book- also includes Ken Barnhart's ZL1...good reading if I don't say so myself https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif Hell, the damn book is less than 4 crappy magazines if you buy it on Amazon.com https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

On the topic (and also in the book), might I cast a vote for the one and only 1968 Z/28 convertible built for Pete Estes - one-off car with factory cross ram, 4.56 gear, JL8 brakes, 'glass hood, etc. I've driven it and it is one wicked car - and nobody will EVER say they like "the other" Z/28 convertible more https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Colin

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance c
 

Enough about your book already that was about as shameless a plug as you will ever find! One car book doesn't make you Earnest Hemingway you know? LOL LOL
Although it was a nice chapter on the ZL-1s.

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Colin beat me to it but I agree the Estes Z car.. That car is just plain awesome.

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I consider the Estes car a one off special built car so it wouldn't fit in my comparison to the RS ZL1. I would still rather have the ZL1 though.

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Colin, what other Z/28 convertible are you referring to?
Mark Sheppard

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance c
 

[ QUOTE ]
Colin, what other Z/28 convertible are you referring to?
Mark Sheppard

[/ QUOTE ]

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q...3/68z28rag.jpg
I had this in a Z28 file, not sure of the story. It can't be real? I do recall the gashole issue though.

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance c
 

For me growing up (Beloit, WI) I can remember a black Nova that had Cragars all around it with the biggest tires I had ever seen in the back. My first car was a Nova. As I grew older I can remember an article in a magazine that interviewed Don Yenko. He said the 1969 427 Yenko Nova was “a beast, almost lethal, a car that they should not have produced; as they were skirting the edge of product liability when they built this car”.

So I vote for the 1969 Chevrolet 427 Yenko Nova. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...7YenkoNova.jpg

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My 2cents:
I think Kwizz was close.
In the entire history of Chevrolet, there was never a more "designed from scratch", full package, under one RPO number, race purpose vehicle than the '63 Impala Z-11. IF you look at everything that car had under ONE RPO #, strickly built for racing only, (with only 50 produced just to have NHRA sanction) there was never another Chevrolet produced with so many specific packaged features for one purpose. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Verne https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

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Are we including "one-offs" or dealer conversions in this query, or are we looking at an RPO'd vehicle completely designed by Chevrolet and offered to the public?

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I'd lean towards the 65 Z15 Chevelle. Chevrolet's first big motored mid sized car....

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Verne, when I was thinking about this thread before I posted it, what I really had in mind is one PARTICULAR car out there like ex: Red Alert, or Dickie Harrel #1 ZL1, the blue RS ZL1, so and so's original owner Yenko Camaro, etc.

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significant...? probally the first ever 427 conversion car.

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I agree with Verne on the '63 Z11. By significance, this car had to be a major influence on the popularity of later Chevrolet muscle. Car was more competitive and much more specialized than the ZL1 plus they were easier to sell. Many ZL1's lost their motors to boats and other race cars or were motors were pulled just to sell the cars. While they had a weight advantage even Jenkins said the iron motors made more power. I'm a Camaro person but feel that big Impala was more significant. I think the runnerup would be the early Z28's in TransAm.

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This is like asking....what do you like more..??? Redheads or Blondes....the answer is....YES https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Tibor....how you doin' in Cheeseland..???

NuYawk

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Great!now don't tell me this car will be at the next mecum auction selling for $800k.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Colin, what other Z/28 convertible are you referring to?
Mark Sheppard

[/ QUOTE ]

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q...3/68z28rag.jpg
I had this in a Z28 file, not sure of the story. It can't be real? I do recall the gashole issue though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance c
 

You guys are talking about generic non specific rare cars with the exception of the Z-28 CV mentioned by Colin.

The reason the unrestored blue ZL-1 is arguably the holy grail of muscle cars is because it is a rare car like many that have been discussed in this excellent thread BUT its condition and options for what should have been a race car like most ZL-1s were is what it sets it apart from the rest.

An original unrestored unmolested highly optioned RS ZL-1 with a documented history makes it number one Chevy IMHO. If the Z-28 CV mentioned by Colin is unrestored then it has to be up there except that the ZL-1 is a much stronger running car than the Z-28. Big block Chevy is really the pinnacle of 60s performance I think?

Now a really interesting discussion is this? I think Charley's not so super snake is the number one most significant Ford muscle car ever built since we are excluding Vettes and Cobra's as sportscars and not muscle cars. Here is the query, between the blue unrestored Zl-1 and Charley's not so super snake which is more historically significant? We need a Mopar muscle car candidate a specific car perhaps a Pontiac and an Olds and lets get ready to rumble and choose the holy grail of muscle cars?

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Les, by asking that question you are going to get a zillion different responses all over the board. Guys, please humor me and stick to Chevys and make it one particular specific car.

Just for fun I am going to disagree with Les, Charley, and others. I do not agree that the blue ZL1 is more significant than for instance, the #1 ZL1 that I picked. I understand everything that you stated as to its originality and rarity, but how could you possibly say it is more "significant" in the true definition of the word, than the #1 ZL1? The #1 ZL1 has some serious racing history, is the ultimate supercar (ZL1), and was driven by one of the fathers, if not THE father of all supercars. Add to this that the car is still out there today, in its full race trim glory, and even makes a lap down the track from time to time. I just am not seeing this. I will also add that if the #1 ZL1 was bought new and put into a time capsule and opened up today as a brand new 1969 Camaro ZL1 in 2008 it would STILL NOT be as significant as it were having been raced.

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance c
 

Very broad question, which opens up a lot of discussion and opinion.

One particular car, or one particular model? And what exactly is "significance"? Significant in the collector realm today, or how it affected the automotive industry decades ago?

The Z11 and Z16 cars really opened the gates to the cars that would follow. I think the Penske Sunoco 69 is probably the most iconic of the early Camaros.

Particular Camaros, the LMB RS ZL1 and the <2000mi. (I grew up knowing it as 1400, think its around 1800 now) Black RS Z are at the top IMO. Just not sure if they have the historical "significance", i.e. race history, prototypes, one-offs, first/last of production, test car, etc.

The LMB 68 Z X-ram Vert pictured above was built by a guy on TC, he may be on here as well. Stamped and repo-papered, but there shouldnt be any confusion as it being #2 of 1.

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This question was bandied around on LS1 tech and the responses ran into the thousands. Since the term significant was chosen I think the Estes car stands alone. Had it not been built,you might have seen about five consecutive years of Manufacturers championships for ford in the T/A series. Five decades of the RPO..how many others lasted more than one?. From a valuation standpoint which would fetch more at say BJ,that(or any) ZL1 or the Estes car?. Don't get me wrong I love the ZL1's but all 69 don't add up to the influence that vert had in changing chevy history in both production and racing.

(Ken,i'm with ya brother)
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...keU2/btop3.jpg

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If we're talking specific cars, a favorite of mine would have to be the #3 Berger ZL-1 Camaro. It may not have those precious, over-rated hide-away headlights, but that Daytona Yellow #3 car DOES happen to be a double COPO with the Sports Car Package, Berger Chevrolet heritage, great colors, Endura bumper and be an M-22 car (rare, even for a ZL-1). Probably the most photographed and documented ZL-1 of all. It is simply the ULTIMATE '69 Camaro and just to stand next to it is awe-inspiring.

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Mark, I too thought of the #3 ZL1. But it was NOT the most photo documented. #1 BLOWS it away with vintage and modern photos.

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Can't stop staring at that black '62 Bel Air. A 1962 409 Bel Air is my all-time favorite car. The list of racers that used those cars is like a who's who list of stock-bodied drag racing. Prettiest car ever made, arguably!

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What about a 1965 Chevelle Z-16 unrestored survivor car in pristine condition I think that is a Chevrolet performance car.

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For me the most significant would be the Z-11's. The pinicle would be the ZL-1's.

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I would think it must be the Camaro and in particular the Z-28 if we are talking muscle only.

However, if Frank really means "significant" Chevrolet performance car and not just muscle car, it must be the Corvette, I'm afraid. It was (is?) the only true American sports car. Between the early Duntov specials, the show cars, the Grand Sport program, the 67 L-88s and the more recent C5R/C6R endurance racing program it has been the only car to really put the US on a world stage. I think that the C5R/C6R program in particular distinguishes the Vette due to the direct factory involvement, the dominance it held over its class and the fact that the road ZO6 was built in the same department. It continues in production form to be "the dogs bollocks", as they say over here.

As for the other marques:

- Ford = the Mustang in all it's various guises
- Pontiac = GTO
- Buick = GSX version of the Skylark
- Olds = W-30 (although I prefer W-31s)
- Plymouth = 'Cuda, in particular the Hemi cars (although I'm partial to the Wing cars)
- Dodge = dare I say the Viper?
- Chrysler = the 300 maybe?
- AMC = AMX

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

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Pete Estes 68 vert was a one off but my understanding when it was sold to the public it was sans the JL8 and crossram. If we are focusing on chevrolet muscle cars the ZL1 does it for me. Now which one take your pick #1,55 or 3.

The blue 68 convert Z28 is a clone with made up paperwork and restamped parts. Not sure why the owner went as far as he did with restamping parts and making fake paperwork https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

Re: The most "significant" Chevrolet performance c
 

[ QUOTE ]
This question was bandied around on LS1 tech and the responses ran into the thousands. Since the term significant was chosen I think the Estes car stands alone. Had it not been built,you might have seen about five consecutive years of Manufacturers championships for ford in the T/A series. Five decades of the RPO..how many others lasted more than one?. From a valuation standpoint which would fetch more at say BJ,that(or any) ZL1 or the Estes car?. Don't get me wrong I love the ZL1's but all 69 don't add up to the influence that vert had in changing chevy history in both production and racing.

(Ken,i'm with ya brother)
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...keU2/btop3.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like you are saying the Estes car was the reason Z28's were built but I think I remember that being proven untrue by the fact that they were either already announced or being built by the time the Estes car was built ?

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I'm glad the Z16 has been brought up a few times in relation to "the most significant Chev performance car". It is the father of all big blocks to follow. The ZL1 is certainly more popular and desirable, though.

Funny, sometimes in conversation I'll say Z16 and you get this https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Doesn't happen with ZL1.

Dave

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I would have to say the 69 ZL-1. It's significance is not only based on it's very limited production, but with it's intentionally under rated HP we need to give GM a lot of credit for creative marketing and advertising. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

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Jeff M, yeah, I totally was not even thinking about a 67 L88 Vette. Those are way up there. I am sure one of the Vette guys like Tim G from Texas knows of one that is way more special than the rest. I remember when I started attending Bloomington Gold 10 years ago I would get those Gold Standard Programs and read the stories about each L88 over and over. Those cars are amazing. True race cars.

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By the way, was there ever any leads as to the stolen paperwork on the Estes Z28 convert? That story makes me sick when I think about it.

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Not necessarily the most valuable or coveted by our group here but don't forget some of the earliest most significant performance cars in Chevrolet history were actually Fhttps://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gifRDS!.

After unloading his interests in Chevrolet to GM founder Billy Durant, Louis Chevrolet a his brothers got back to their real love...racing!.
The Chevy Bros Frontenac Motors Co. produced the very successful 'Fronty' Ford racers also making their modified heads, parts and cars available to other racers..
Sound like anyone else you know of?https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif.

Here's a bit of an online blurb on the subject..
http://www.modelt.ca/speed.html

~ Pete
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

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No,Piggens got the green light from Estes almost two years before that car was built on 7/15/68. I think the car was more a thanks from the engineers for him approving the 67 program,it certainly helped the RPO transcend time.