Need Opinion on Pontiac Formula Survivor
 

Hey Everyone,
Need a thought on this if you don't mind.
Pursuing this car and speaking to the dealer this week.
https://www.southcarmotorsports.com/...irebird/c2505/
The claim is very low mileage (under 8k) survivor with a very detailed description by the seller. It appears to be as claimed however I am having trouble with the undercarriage pics though would be addressable. Dealer claims to know the car for years and the story seems reasonable.
Hagerty has it higher than what he will take for the car but the car appears to have been stored in some environment that caused front and rear end components to get rustier than I would expect.
Looking for opinions on originality and value.
Also, what does one expect in terms of cost for an "undercarriage restoration? Would you tackle on your own and how would you go about it?
I really appreciate any inputs, there are some good undercarriage pics in the ad.
The car was rustproofed so floors look good, mostly suspension that looks like it would need a freshen up.
Thank you !

That car looks brand new (headliner & suspension rust aside). I'd try an evap-o-rust bath first. or dismatle the front and rear suspension and bathe it separately and re-assemble. Nice find.

I'm probably the least quailfied person on here, but it looks pretty good to me. There are a few threads on here on how to get that undercarriage looking good, might be a fun car to take to the next level. What else can you buy for 20K these days that is as cool as that?

thanks
 

Tracker1, thanks for taking a look and replying. I had not heard of that product but looks to be pretty effective. The headliner doesn't bother me, to be honest would be concerned if it was perfect I guess. I have to think that it is priced right, don't see if going down at all and the dealer can flex a bit

thanks
 

Thanks LateBrake, that was my thought. I started out wanting a TA but they are too much money now and this caught my eye, very understated appearance, love the factory dog dish and the paperwork on the car, third pedal, all the right stuff.

Inspection
 

Tracker1, what are your thoughts on independent inspection of the car? I am in the Boston area and ideally like a second set of eyes before hitting the bank? Anyone you or anyone can recommend?

If there is a paper trail that supports mileage, I think this is actually a good deal. I think there's some upside to this car down the road, too.

The undercarriage photos were taken with a flash, which always makes rust & scale look worse. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by this car in person.

I like the Evapo-Rust idea, but part of me says to leave it alone. Maybe a coat of WD40 or Boeshield to darken up the scale a bit more? With survivors, I'm in the camp saying excessive fluffing is frowned upon. Once you start taking suspension pieces off, you may not know where to stop. And, once factory fasteners are broken loose, it's one more piece of a very low mileage car that's been altered. Again, just another guy's opinion...

Jeff

thanks
 

Jeff
after thinking about this I have to agree. I talked to the dealer and he is no slouch. Has some six figure builds he has done and puts some big dollar cars through Mecum and BJ. Says he has this car because he always wanted it, grew up in PA and knew the car so when it came up he got a call on it. He said the same thing about the undercarriage, it is part of the story and he really did not want to fluff it and take that part of the story away. Appreciate the opinion, right on the money.

I can't thank you enough for getting back in touch with your kind words. Preservation is my business and I have a funny feeling you're going to be pretty happy with this car. I can't offer any input on the dealer or their reputation, but I like the way they present cars. Here's the way I look at a car like this: after shipping, tax, and insurance, if you decide to part ways with the car after a season or two, I truly believe you'll end up in the black on this one. Good luck and please keep in touch if you make the deal!

Jeff

Will do Jeff. He sent me a couple of walk around vids and one driving and to be honest, nothing to pick apart. Paint is not checked, still has good shine and probably a blast to drive. Will let everyone know how it goes and really appreciate the conversation.

I may be parting ways with an 83 C10, 2WD shorty, well preserved as well.
68k miles, southern truck, one repaint. Red/Red, fully optioned and as clean as new underneath

I may have some interest in your truck. Please private message me with information if you decide you'd like to part ways. Thanks again and good luck with the Formula...I'm excited to hear how it goes!

Looks like a cool car. That's the original falling vinyl headliner that has separated from the foam backing. There's a giant single cardboard backing piece that is very fragile. Needs to be carefully removed and recovered.

Looks like the underside of the car was heavily rustproofed with Ziebart. That is removable with lots of elbow grease and some Gojo. Look what this member did to remove the that gunk just the other day on his '76 Bird. That Ziebart was an amazing preservative for pristine metal underneath.

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=156730

BTW, Evaporust is a buffered solution that just chemically rinses the surface rust away without altering the metal underneath or the paint. Go through my thread and you can see what it can do for a survivor car - see what it did to the rusty driveshaft before and after. But you'd really have to steam cleam/pressure wash the underside to reomve the dirt and Ziebart before you could do anything with Evaporust on any bare metal surface - if there is any grease or dirt in the way, it is a waste of time.

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthre...123936&page=14

By the way, I see in the photos that the key is in the run position and the gas gauge is reading 9:00 PM. :-) That means the fuel tank sender has gone bad. You can go through my other thread and see what is involved in replacing that unit (and finding a new sender for the weird 75/76 year cars).

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthre...113621&page=16

In looking at the photos it appears to have had some paint work. There is overspray on both sides of the cowl in front of the winshield, near the fenders, that should not be there. The overspray is on top of the blacked out section as well as on top of the sealer at the cowl seam. The gas tank has overspray as well on top of the Ziebart. That Ziebart would have been applied at the dealership after delivery.

Steve
Thank you appreciate the insights. Where I am confused is that overspray under the hood near the windshield is VERY uniform on both side and there is not paint on the edge of the plastic insert closest to the windshield. Does not look like any bolts have been turned or removed. Are you 100% sure that overspray from the factory is not possible?
Also on the overspray on the tank, there is no other over spray on the spring wrapped line or the leaf spring which would certainly be the case if it made it on to the tank and that is also consistent with the other side?
Honestly appreciate what you shared but knowing the history of the car and mileage, I cannot imagine that front and rear were painted and returned to such factory appearance down to the door edge guards, stripes and emblems......
Additional thoughts? THANK YOU AGAIN!

Here's a comparison with my 73 survivor car - no overspray there, and my 1975 Firebird that my family has owned since new. You'll note there is some tan overspray in the central cowl area in front of the windshield on our 75 - This is the overspray from the saddle colored interior paint on the dashboard.

The cowl on your 76 looks like orange overspray over the black cowl paint and not just poor coverage by the black paint on the cowl over original orange body paint. BTW, the front ends were painted in a different place than the rest of the body so there would be no reason for overspray to be that far down the front of the cowl unless the person in charge of the blackout spray painting was having a bad day?

As for the tank, the fact that the overspray is on top of the Zeibart makes it impossible for it to have been factory overspray. Also, the fuel tanks were not in the car when the body was painted. The straps themselves were in the car and hanging which results in an odd factory situation where you'd have body colored painted straps and a natural metal tank. Could it be similar colored road dust and not orange overspray??? I would ask the seller to get you some natural light photos (no flash) of the sides of the gas tank to see what we are looking at.

Is there a way anyone can get a photo of the underside edge of fender edge by those cowl areas? If it's black under there then the orange is later overspray. If its orange under there, then it could be factory applied but with a really skimpy blackout treatment. A plus is that there is no orange paint on the cowl seal and the green zinc is fully intact on the retaining clips (the zinc finish is easy to damage when removing these clips)

Maybe we can get fellow member 70copo to render an opinion on the paint process as to whether the blackout paint occurred before or after body color was applied. He literally wrote the book on the Norwood Assembly plant and its processes. https://www.norwoodassemblyplant.com/ (i'll send him a message)

BTW, in the ad they indicate:
"the heating and fan control has been disconnected, as the original owner removed the heater core from the car in 1990 when it was set up for long-term storage. The original heater core IS included, and with it installed and the fan controls connected again, I am quite sure it would function."
When you look at the engine bay you can see that the heater core nipples are showing in their original place sticking out of the firewall. Just the hoses appear to be missing. It is a major job to do a heater core on one of these cars. Like 8 hours labor. (in the thread on my 73 you can see how involved it is. To do it right, you have to pull the bottom bolts out of the fender and inner fender to access some of the heater box bolts and the heater box comes out from the inside of the car after you remove the seats, console, radio, all the skin from your knuckles...)

All in all it looks like a really neat car and I think you'd have a lot of fun with it, though it only has around 185 horsepower. The underside cleaning would be fun winter project in a nice heated garage. :-)

If you look at that hood stop bolt on top of the cowl you can see the black was sprayed after the body color. You can see how the bolt blocked the black from getting on the orange that was already there. If the orange was sprayed second it would have covered the black that you can see in front of the orange side of that bolt. Make sense ?

That car is a cream puff!! Buy it and get the headliner fixed and a little TLC underneath. Love the dog dish look...

Pretty Car ! I've always preferred the Formulas over the T/A's Love the Color,4spd & Dog dishes !!! Good Luck

Yup. That makes sense in a forensic, crime scene kind of way. Looks like we had an apathetic, altitude-challenged blackout painter who refused to move from his standing location in the lower center/front of the body area, versus the tall, happily employed guy who painted my two cars and who actually moved his position to cover both ends of the cowl.

You can see the opposite coverage pattern on the bolt on my 73, where the blackout paint hit it from the side. The fact that the bolt was fully white before the blackout paint hit it does confirm that there was a %$#load of body colored paint in that area prior to being blacked out.

Thank you
 

Charley and everyone that offered input, thank you.
The most important thing for me is the originality of the car and paint. The term survivor gets used in many forms though I have always felt that in order to check that box, paint would be original from factory. Everyone has their own idea but that is mine. In terms of the car and the way the owner presented it I am now feeling that paint is original to the car or at least that is what I am gathering from Charley's CSI like observation. Going to put this together and try to get it done. Car is not perfect but I bet it is the lowest mileage 76 formula around, at least here in New England. Thank you all again for inputs, feel free to keep any thoughts coming.

That looks like a great car to me and I hope you get it. Keep us posted.

I second that. :-)

And don't replace the original falling headliner material. Just remove it, vacuum out the powdered foam residue, install a new layer of foam and glue the original vinyl headliner material to that. (I made that mistake on our '75 and regretted not reusing the original material ever since)

Wow that’s nice. Master should be black, the headliners loose the foam behind a d drop. Easy fix. I think perf was in 76. ? Looks like a short hairy hose it there and little details like the seat belt tensioner are there. I don’t see the large red space saver inflator. I sent the link to a 76 bud, let’s see what he says. Lol. Nice car!
I have a nOS hub cap in the box like those. Are those hub caps rite fir 76? They look real fresh.

He mentioned that the car was pretty much as ordered. The steelies and dogs are referenced on the order form so I would assume they are original though I don't recall seeing that config prior but I love the look. Appreciate the input.

Thank you Charley, that was my thought as well. The overspray is too identical to have been later in life, appreciate the CSI like eye you have. Working on putting the deal together thanks to all of the great input. Will keep you posted.

I saw a 75 I think it was and it has more 1/2 round. But that’s a year older. It would show pics in a 76 dealer album if you can get your hands on one. They are just may be correct. I actually had those on my 78. Everyone gave me so much crap I finally took them off. Lol.

What about the holes? Wouldn’t you see the foam? Man you got me thinking I should have done that. I recently found a nOS package tray. I’m just missing the headliner

My 78 has a black ugly stuff sprayed on the cowl, I think after the car was painted and after the ac box was installed.

IMO.. after reviewing the paint process in plant the front end of the car looks very consistent with the over spray pattern for that era. Attached please find an image of a 9000 mile 77 Z-28 for a comparison of the tops at the cowls.

As to the rear, I suspect the car had some stone chips repaired later in life and picked up a couple of touch ups. These cars were very prone to stone damage from driving so the first thing you would do is get a set of mud flaps for them.

I would say that is a pretty damn good car.

On an unrelated note I am reviewing images from Norwood for the next book and I found two guys on the assembly line building cars - and both wearing togas. Some goofy stuff happened at that plant and that is why we love it. :beers:

The factory material had a light colored foam attached. The pinholes are too small to see anything anyway.

I knew you'd have the answer! I guess as the later in the decade we got, the less black paint on the cowl, the car got. :-)

Thank you 70 Copo, nice to have a back up to what Charley was thinking in terms of spray patterns. The deal is done and after some paperwork the car will be headed north to Massachusetts. The Seller/Dealer has been beyond accommodating with regards to questions, pictures and details. We talked on Wednesday and he said they were putting new plugs in it just to make sure it was running as it as when it was parked in his garage, kind of refreshing. Could have just as easily sent it up and let me deal with it. Carb has been rebuilt, new fuel, new fuel pump and it sounds pretty good from the virtual test drive we did. This car was on Barnfinds in April 19 and I was watching it on ebay, it went up over $20k but he said he was looking for "stupid money" at the time and decided to hold on to it. A year later I found it on Hemmings and figured it was fate. Be a car I really don't do too much to, drive it and pick at any mechanical gremlins that pop up, sure there will be a few but intend to leave it as it is for the most part.
Thanks again for all of the response, details and inputs on the car, really helped me get this done.

NJSTeve, any thing else you can share on the headliner repair I did one on my C10 and was pretty straight forward. Used the original backing and put on new fabric, is that what you are referring to in your prior post as opposed to installing an entirely new backing?

I notice the F bodies still had the holes in the lower rockers even if they didn't have the WIDE trim in 76.

The 76 has a giant cardboard form that is used instead of the traditional metal rods that run across the ceiling. The factory used a black (in this case) perforated headliner fabric that was spray glued to the cardboard backing. The foam eventually turns to dust and the fabric it was attached to droops. You can purchase a large section of just the thin foam, spray glue it to the cardboard and then spray glue the original black fabric to the foam. Like a giant Oreo cookie. No need to buy new headliner fabric when the original still is OK.

Headliner in my 73 Z failed the exact same way, and that is how I fixed it as well.

Here is the sagging headliner on my 900 mile 74 Z28.

has the dash started curling up at the back edge also on the 900 mile z