Late 69 Camaro 10E Build Date vs Muncie Build Date
 

Guy's

I've committed to the purchase of a 69 Z/28 that was built 10E of 69. The engine stamp and diff align nicely with the car, and the broach marks are spot on. It has a semi legible block stamp in the rough cast that also matches the car. The transmission has what appears to be a legit VIN stamp and the only thing I am curious about is the oddly dated Muncie build stamp which is early for this car. Were the late cars (10E) known to come with transmissions built and stamped earlier than the later assembly build dates during this period.

Here are the details of the build.

Door Sticker VIN marked 11/69 with VIN ending N708XXX
Norwood Body # NOR161163 dated 10E
Engine Stamp V1021DZ Cast Date Unknown TBA
Trans Stamp P9K03A - VIN and fonts look good and last character and a box depressed under the font (deeper square box like depression unlike all the other fonts)
Diff Stamp BU 1028G1 (E under it and a stand alone 5 under the G which I've not seen before)

The VIN stamp appears good on the transmission and being a low mile car, it retains all original bolts with the data tag still on the side cover with TR bolts. I doubt it has ever been apart from the looks of it. The curious point to me is the July 3rd date which is over 90 days earlier than the cars actual build date. No docs but I'm assuming the car was built very early November. Anyone seen that spread before on a late built car?

Last 3 numbers of VIN edited out of photo's until I have possession of the car.

Thanks in advance for any info on the trans stamp...

Graeme

https://i.ibb.co/7zdZxws/Trim-Tag.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/gdmRQMP/Door-Tag.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/L0wdq3x/Deck-Stamp-Engine.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/ZKNgSnj/Rough-Cast.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/0sLKvQb/Stamp-Trans-VIN.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/k9mMgGf/Stamp-Diff.jpg

When the quarter panel tooling for the 1970 Camaro failed, Norwood had to scramble to keep '69s in production. Exactly when this became known isn't clear. Through about 09A Z/28s mostly had June/July dated transmissions. Starting 09C, May dated transmissions show up. It appears that at some point, surplus Muncie transmissions were rounded up from other assembly plants and shipped to Norwood. I have another 10E Z/28 with the same date as yours; another has a trans dated May 7. Same for COPOs. Know of a 10A car with a May 23 trans.

Muncie still produced 1969 model year trans for Norwood [P9R; mostly October dates] but there are a few like yours with much earlier dates.

Thank you for that info William. You have a great wealth of information and I was hoping you would chime in. It is very much appreciated. Have you seen that 5 on the diff stamps before. I've seen the E stamp under the date codes but had no idea what the 5 meant?

I have a friend with a 09E COPO with the protect-o-plate, his engine and rear were both assembled the third week of August but the transmission is stamped P9H23 which is 6/23/69.

Have seen late '69 rears with a "C" in front of the "BU"

No idea on what the 5 means. First one I have seen.

The 'C' prefix on rear axles was added when production resumed early August '69. Possibly because it may cause service confusion, it appears the C was subsequently peened over on some axles [mostly CBU] .

More info here:

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=10375.0

You could also check the casting dates on the trans side cover and tail housing.

I agree, no issues with that trans.
I bet if you clean to the left of the axle code, there's a C there.
Does it have a 480 distributor?

My 11A car is 708 also trans P 9 R 21 has a 2003 dist

No, it is missing the original distributor. It's the only thing I'll need to find in order for it to be complete and correct throughout. I'm assuming it should be an 1112003 casting from what I have leaned recently? Original cowl hood car as well. Has original smog, manifolds, pulleys, rad w/ tag, alt, carb, booster, master, jack, orig spare and all 5 original YH wheels. Rad was just re-cored and smog is off the car at the moment but going back on soon. I've got another 692 water pump for it also.

With that said, a few maintenance items were serviced over the years and will need some minor correcting, but car is very complete and very original throughout. One repaint in the 90's and has 49,000 original miles with all factory sheet metal. 3rd owner added NOS wheel opening moldings. Here's a few pics for now. I'll post more when I get it home and go through in the off season to correct some little things.

https://i.ibb.co/VMZrB6M/012a.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/QMz1YRF/035.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/LZjfzQw/017l.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/GRrgqpg/014.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/J3JQTvH/013c.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/127MZbh/019b.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/FYgF6pf/019e.jpg

Nice Z!! I like...

Here for reference is a Vintage Certified unrestored 10A
Dist 9E 13 2003
Trans 9R03B
Rear CBU 1006G1

Congrats Graeme! Beautiful car.
Buddy

That looks like a great car. Congrats. :drool:

Love the black vinyl and stripes on lemans blue. Last time I saw one was at the ICC Camaro National in 97. Congrats and enjoy!!!!!!

I had a Lemans Blue SS black vinyl car back in 93' that I later sold and should have kept. Oh how prices have changed since then (lol) That was 5K back in the day. Remember that one George Brown.

Nice car.

The entire basis for the 1971 Camaro being advanced to 1970 was based entirely on the draft proposed rule making then contained in the pending 1970 FVMS 208 "Occupant Crash Protection", the original draft then set for a January 1970 revision as promulgated by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).

As a courtesy to the manufacturers the circulation of draft rule-making distributed for comment is normal, and in this case NHTSA pulled a fast one creating regulatory conditions that caused GM to kill the 1969 body style way ahead of schedule.

Adding inury to insult - NHTSA proceeded to then redact the draft FVMS 208 rule-making significantly and also delayed it until nearly 1971-taking the very conditions causing GM to kill the gen 1 car early completely off the table.

Discussed in Echoes of Norwood on pages 134-135 and on 139-140.

Attached are research excerpts from three different dates and three different newspapers all reporting that the 1971 cars were actually being advanced to 1970 production.

Very interesting. I had read some of that years ago but just got a refresh to keep some of that back of mind. I recall seeing a late 69 bodied car that was titled as 1970. When were those cars ran in production? During the end of that 1st week of November before the plant closed?

Thanks for sharing the info.

Gen 1 was always intended to run through 1970, the 1969 restyled body was a major investment but the book “Unsafe at any Speed”, Congress, political infighting, and proposed crash rules doomed the 1969 early.

Here is a press photo of one wearing a 1970 plate.

Wow, neat Z. :drool:

Mike

There's pics of 69's in the GM Store with 1970 plates. But all 69's were VIN'd as 69's. Some were titled as 1970, but that was a clerk error and didn't change what the VIN said.

Actually, there is one known exception. The Venezuelan plant missed out on the memo and some of their late 69's had a 1970 VIN. I know of one car that still exists.

The very late cars often have 2003 distributors, mostly 10D and later. But even some of those late cars have 480's.

Check the valve covers and see if they have drippers mine did and the star door strikers

Late 69 Camaro 10E Build Date vs Muncie Build Date
 

Graeme: Really nice survivor car you got there. Beautiful color combo. Now, I know why you wanted to sell the Nova.

I really really liked the Nova and loved driving it, but when I ended up selling the green Z/28 back to its original owner, I began looking for another one to replace it and the Nova. I had 3 color choices and a few options I was working to find but when this one popped up, I was quick to get with the seller and work out a deal.

Can't say enough good things about the seller as well. Great guy who is a total straight shooter through and through. And it's not the first time I have had the pleasure of dealing with him. Thanks Jeff Boone.

You done did me well buddy. :biggthumpup:

Thanks Graeme for the kind words, but I still want that steering wheel Ugh! I know this car is in good hands and you will finish it as I had plans to do but you kept pushing me to send you some pics before I was ready. Darn them pushy Canadian's, persistence paid off.

Very Kool.