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-   -   Un-restored - Survivor 1969 L78 396 375hp Z11 Pace Car (https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=154764)

TXSS 04-28-2019 12:59 AM

Un-restored - Survivor 1969 L78 396 375hp Z11 Pace Car
 
For Sale

L78 Pace Car - unrestored survivor, original paint, all original factory sheet metal, born with drive-train including L78 396 375hp engine, CX Turbo 400 transmission and BT coded 12 bolt 3:55 posi rear end. The engine is standard bore and has been completely rebuilt as has the transmission, brakes and cooling system. All have less than 300 miles since being rebuilt. The interior is mostly original except for the carpet. The driver's seat cover is not original but is a factory seat cover as is the boot. Both were purchased from a member of this site. All door and quarter glass is original. The paint is 95% original with some minor repaint on the spoiler. Paint is not show quality after 50 years. Has complete factory correct smog system and correct Gardner exhaust system. Minor rust at the tips of the fenders and quarter panels. The remainder of the sheet metal including the floors and trunk pan are 100% solid and rust free and still show factory over spray. Many original grease markings still exist on the car. Odometer reads 92,XXX miles. Documented with the original signed dealer sales order obtained directly from the original owner along with signed correspondence.

Regarding the casting date on the block. I have no idea why the casting date on the block precedes the build date of the car by 9 months or why the block was decked. What I do know is there are factory stamped vins by the oil filter and on the top of the transmission, all hidden vins are in-place and available for inspection and I have the original dealer sales order that I received directly from the original owner and complete owner history.

I have tried multiple times over the past few years to get either Camaro High Performance or Vintage Certifications to discuss inspecting the car but I've had no success. I have seen some discussions online regarding this car. Let me just say that anyone who claims to have firsthand knowledge regarding this car or to have had this car inspected is not being honest. No one has inspected this car except me and Roy Chaney at Camaro Concepts. I invite any serious buyer to bring any legitimate expert of their choosing to inspect the car any time. I have 100's of additional pictures, just ask and I'll send pictures of any area of the car you would like to see. The car is located 15 mile west of Houston, Texas

82,000.00 obo

This car will be 50 years old next week.

Options:

Power Steering
Power Brakes
Tilt Steering Wheel
Factory Rosewood Steering Wheel
Turbo 400 Automatic Transmission
Console
AM Radio

Casting Numbers & Date Codes:

Block 3955272 H148
Intake 3933163 C169
Heads 3919840 C269 / C259
Holley Carburetor 3959164 GE List 4346 8B1 Not original to the car
Exhaust manifolds LH 3916178 A269 RH 3909879 A229
CX Turbo 400 Transmission 445
12 Bolt 3:55 Posi-Track BT 0110 G E
Original Harrison Radiator
Correct Factory Smog System Not original to the car.
Rally Wheels YJ K19 19/27
Alternator and distributor are not correct for the car.

https://i.imgur.com/9CjWqYC.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/pLWcNvk.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dYYPYmR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/7wnHVv6.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Xpk88PT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/IedaQrX.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/GqcdfYT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/OW0kH0K.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/gnBSCZ0.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zddzeGC.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/wHZN55X.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/RrsHQSk.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/v19R5gw.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/BeAuxEx.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/G7LExZT.jpg

Mr70 04-28-2019 01:22 AM

Very nice,does it have a flat bottom air cleaner?

bbbentley 04-28-2019 08:41 AM

Man! Is this an opportunity of a lifetime? What a desirable piece. GLWS

bergy 04-28-2019 12:27 PM

Beautiful car!!!!

Curious about the options listed on the dealer invoice. Weren't many of those options mandatory on the Z11? So, would they also have been listed on the window sticker?

Great car - not questioning the documentation one bit. Just trying to figure out how the dealer pricing on the invoice would have been translated on the window sticker.

TXSS 04-28-2019 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr70 (Post 1445492)
Very nice,does it have a flat bottom air cleaner?

It does have the original assembly line flat bottom air cleaner.

William 04-28-2019 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bergy (Post 1445545)
Beautiful car!!!!

Curious about the options listed on the dealer invoice. Weren't many of those options mandatory on the Z11? So, would they also have been listed on the window sticker?

Great car - not questioning the documentation one bit. Just trying to figure out how the dealer pricing on the invoice would have been translated on the window sticker.

Mandatory options were driven by other options. For example the Z/28 option was initially priced at $458.15 but required other options at extra cost: 4-speed transmission and power front disc brakes. They are listed on documentation. Camaro SS included power front disc brakes and the HD Muncie 3-speed transmission; only the Camaro SS option is listed on factory documents.

Makes for some confusion when tallying total production of certain options that were included with others. For example CE1 Headlamp Washers show a total production of 116. But they were included with the Z22 Rally-Sport option; 37,773 produced.

L78 Fred 04-28-2019 07:53 PM

Could you post a picture of the block date?

Something is not adding up
If it was a H 14 8 it would be a 440 casting
If it was a H14 9 it should be a 854 casting
the vin is clearly in the range of the 272 casting that is why I'm asking
should be a April stamped block...…..

Nice car but something doesn't add up
If someone else can shed more light - please let me know

Thank you
Fred

TXSS 04-29-2019 12:11 AM

Hi Fred

Posted a picture of the block casting date. Looks clearly to be an H 14 8 and a 272. Seams early for a 272 but there it is.

the427king 04-29-2019 12:13 AM

Fred in print the earliest 272 blocks are said to be sept 68. Ive had H of 68 272s before...if that was a 854 9 date it would be stamped on the top as you know.....

427TJ 04-29-2019 04:25 PM

"I invite any serious buyer to bring any legitimate expert of their choosing to inspect the car any time. I have 100's of additional pictures, just ask and I'll send pictures of any area of the car you would like to see."

I wish every for sale ad had these two sentences in it.

Sean 04-29-2019 05:09 PM

Rick is a stand up guy very honest.

mmcporter 04-29-2019 10:19 PM

Great looking Pacer.

L78 Fred 04-30-2019 04:24 PM

Rick,
Thank you for the block picture and best wishes with the sale !

Chuck - Thank you for your input - so there are both 440 and 272 castings in the very early 69 model year- I was not aware of this before
ADMIN- Could you move my block questions to another area for further discussions as to when the changes occurred with the 69 Model year 396/375HP Blocks 440/272/854 castings
I have a T0905 JH 396/375 Block, 440 casting Dated _ 19 8 ( I will try to see if I can make out the first character) Vin 19W316193
I recently sold a T0418JH 396/375 Block 272 casting Dated 4 15 9 vin 19N637539
Thank you

bergy 04-30-2019 05:32 PM

I think that it was a good question Fred. If it was my car, I would want all of these comments with the car thread - the community helps to clear up any confusion on the part of a future buyer. It's also unusual (to me) to see the block VIN stamped with the leading "11N". I'm more used to seeing just "1N". The trans appears to be stamped "1N" (unless the first 1 is just not clear in the picture) - if the trans only has "1N", it would also be odd since the block & trans were usually stamped with the same gang.

TXSS 04-30-2019 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bergy (Post 1445839)
I think that it was a good question Fred. If it was my car, I would want all of these comments with the car thread - the community helps to clear up any confusion on the part of a future buyer. It's also unusual (to me) to see the block VIN stamped with the leading "11N". I'm more used to seeing just "1N". The trans appears to be stamped "1N" (unless the first 1 is just not clear in the picture) - if the trans only has "1N", it would also be odd since the block & trans were usually stamped with the same gang.

Bergy and Fred

I agree I always like to air my cars out on this site as the input is informed and fare. That is why I put the statement in the ad regarding the block casting date.

The trans is actually stamped “19N” which is what I’m more use to seeing in a 69 car. The “11N” is an anomaly for sure and may be as simple as the gang not being set up correctly. I’ve seen lots a double stamps, misaligned stamps, stamps done backwards and upside down. It’s impossible to know exactly why it is the way it is. What I do know is when you compare the stampings to other stamping in the same period, look at all of the cars provenance it’s a righteous car with bulletproof docs.

Also, having the Pace Car options listed individually is really interesting and odd. I know having spoken to the original owners husband, yes the original owner was a woman and she owned a Texaco station. You can see that on the sales order. And having spoken to the owner of the dealership I learned a lot of interesting things about the car. One was that Hawkeye Chevrolet traded a Corvette to another dealership for the Pace Car. So that may have something to do with the Pace Car options being listed individually on the sales order.

Thanks for y’alls input

the427king 04-30-2019 09:59 PM

Weve seen there are typos on vin lists, so its not unusual to have human error on the line too

the427king 04-30-2019 10:35 PM

txss, Normally if something is obviously wrong,it usually means its right. No restamper would have a reason to think he needed to put two 1s .

bergy 05-01-2019 12:21 AM

Anyway - great car & a very fair price for such a rare piece. Good for you Rick for having the openness and honesty to post good pictures.

iluv69s 05-01-2019 09:13 PM

Beautiful car and great ad !

the 11N and 19N bother me... Ive always seen 19N... but more interesting is that the trans and blocked were stamped while bolted together and one right after another. Within seconds.
Hard to believe the GM worker changed dyes in between stamps. But anything could have happened I guess. broken dye after one stamp? realized the 11 was wrong and changed it ? (doubtful).

My brother retired form GM and his job for years was stamping the blocks and trans with the VINs. The workers dont care so much, believe me !!

GLWS

TXSS 05-02-2019 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iluv69s (Post 1445970)
Beautiful car and great ad !

the 11N and 19N bother me... Ive always seen 19N... but more interesting is that the trans and blocked were stamped while bolted together and one right after another. Within seconds.
Hard to believe the GM worker changed dyes in between stamps. But anything could have happened I guess. broken dye after one stamp? realized the 11 was wrong and changed it ? (doubtful).

My brother retired form GM and his job for years was stamping the blocks and trans with the VINs. The workers dont care so much, believe me !!

GLWS

Interesting. So you're saying that the GM worker would not have changed the dye. He would have just keep stamping blocks with a broken or missing # 9? (doubtful).

Harder to believe is that someone savvy enough to have the correct dyes would be so incompetent as to stamp the wrong numbers on the block. I'd have to agree with Chuck "if something is obviously wrong, it usually means its right. No restamper would have a reason to think he needed to put two 1s" .

That's why provenance on a car is so important. It gives you more insight into a car than just the stamping. You can see who owned it, when, for how long and get an idea what they may have used the car for.


Like you said anything could happen. :hmmm:

https://i.imgur.com/NrQrDue.jpg

tom406 05-02-2019 06:08 PM

1 Attachment(s)
FWIW, this was my favorite stamping I inspected this year-Los Angeles built Z where the "9" just went missing that day.

TXSS 06-05-2019 11:03 PM

Reduced 78,000 - Motivated


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