Judge VIN tag put on regular GTO, opinions please.

[Steve_Hoog]

I had a friend that had a very nice and original type Judge RAIV, it wasn't his fault but it got wrecked really bad from the rear. It was so far gone that the body shop talked him into replacing the entire body and frame, then sticking his VIN tag on the regular GTO along with all the Judge stuff and drivetrain. I know this is legal in some states under certain conditions. I know that due to fire and rust this may appeal to some people too.

But I feel that at this point, it has gone too far. It's just a paper car at this point, and doesn't appeal to me. Also there is a certain amount of deception in this, whether it be in the begining of the body replacement or after time and ownership changes (where the nature of the car is conviently forgotten about).

I would like to hear some pro's and con's on this, if anyone is willing to share. I would like to know if I'm wrong compared to the majority of you.

[68z302]

Touchy subject.
We don't seem to mind replacing virtualy any or all the sheet metal on a car for restoration purposes but frown upon tagging a car even if it would make for a better resto.

If you found a totally rusted out '69 L78, Z28, pace car or COPO with all original dated components & swapped them into a rust free body it wouldn't be a "original", even if you went as far as swapping the front cowl & with the VIN, but if you find one without any of the original components & you built one you could sell it as "original". Isn't this is a bit goofy? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
There must be a lot of cars that have been swapped out & sold. How can you tell? All those Tags with VIN's on ebay are obviously being used with that intent, we all know that & of course it comes down to money. But how do you prove it?

We would all want the original body but with todays welding technology & a good bodyman I think you'd never know.

[Pantera]

Here in OKLA it is against the law. Somewhere down the line someone may check the body Vin stamped on the firewall and see that it does not match the one on the post. The cops will impound it and you will have hell getting it back unless you have some mighty good records and then they may not let you have it. At the very least they will remove the main VIN # (transplanted VIN plate on the door post) and assign a OK state # to it, which will destroy most of the value of that car. They should have cut it across the floor and top and replaced it from there back. I saw a local dealer buy some cars that were stolen and the VIN didn't match and he lost every one. They will go by the stamped cowl # and it dam well better match the one on the post. I think it is a Federal crime now that I think of it to have anything to do with changing the VIN #.

[68z302]

Don't you think it's pretty easy now to cut out the Firewall VIN & cut that piece into another firewall?

[Steve_Hoog]

Larry

It was out of state. But there was a guy that is dead now; Mitch Adams, who lived here in Tulsa. He had a dark brown RAIV regular GTO that the exact same thing happened to as for the wreck and rearend, they did just what you said to that car. I saw the pics in progress and it was amazing.

But once again, that really takes away from the originality of the car. I am generally not interested in anything that has had Quarter replacement. Much less the entire rear section of a car. And with all the rebuilding going on now; it is hard to tell what is real, especially for the buyer that doesn't know what to look for.

Oh, and I do know some one in Tulsa that is probably doing a tag replacement on a Lt. Blue 70 Judge IV with pink stripes, I was VERY dissappointed in the approach he took on the car. I fed him the lead of where it was, it had been sitting in a feild since 1976 and the rust had taken it's toll on the car. What a shame too. Several times over the years I had thought about buying a tarp for the car even though I didn't own it, sure wish I would have now.

Steve

[Steve_Hoog]

With all the welding techniques available now, I think anything is possible and some un detectable.

[yellowjudge]

HI, I know of alot of this. Although I feel it is a shame to let certain RARE cars go to the graveyard. This only is fair, & makes the legit cars worth more. I believe they should. I don't think anyone would want the revin, but atleast tell the buyer up front. I think alot of these cars out there have had the revin treatment.

[yellowjudge]

I had 2 real 69 RA III TAs, both ROUGH!! The 4spd was restorable, but back in 1995, they did not bring that much, &amp; cost of resto far out weighed value. I found an 100% all orig. 69 RAIV TA, alot of orig. paint. I got it, &amp; parted both 69s. The car is now done to concours level, so much esaier , when you start w/super clean western car. <font color="blue"> </font>

[68z302]

Whith the value of muscle cars today.
Nobody will devalue a car they're selling by telling you it's been tagged

[njsteve]

It is absolutely illegal everywhere to do what your "friend" did. And if by some remote chance he found a state that had some type of exploitable loophole somewhere in the law, UNDER FEDERAL LAW IT IS A FELONY! The removal of a number used for vehicle identification purposes (and note that this can also apply to firewall tags!) and placing it upon a vehicle that it did not originally come on, and then representing the vehicle as that previous vehicle, is a felony. Period. It's like identity theft for cars. The car is subject to being seized and confiscated as contraband material and the owner who authorized it, as well as the individuals at the shop who performed the VIN swap, can be prosecuted under those same statutes as well as the relevant conspiracy statutes. You may ask why would the Feds bother with one car? Well, that may have been true years ago when the cars weren't that valuable, but now when you are talking about swapping the vins on say, a 6 cyl Camaro body with the vin from a wrecked ZL1. The result is a $200,000+ vehicle, and that will get the attention of any U.S Attorney very quicky who is looking for an easy conviction stat...BTW, feel free to tell us all the name of the shop so we can all avoid this place like the plague! The last thing anyone needs is to have the reputation of their car's legitimacy tainted by a shop that would do vin swaps, because once an investigation starts with one of these shops, all the records get examined and all vehicles "restored" by them get examined as well. -NJSteve