Fake Protect-O-Plates...

[x Baldwin Motion]

make way for the fake date stampers

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
good information!

it's info with pictures like this that will help in the sale of legit cars.....

possibly supercedeing any false paperwork or fake pop's...

[/ QUOTE ]

Granted sheetmetal stamping is well known, however critical pieces of knowledge should not be disclosed. I am not here to educate the crooks. You know what it takes to make a almost perfect clone and I won't be a part of educating counterfeiters & crooks to perfect their deceptive practices. You call it educating ...I call it plain stupidity Many members on this site feel the same way.



When I share critical information it is with people I know and trust and do it discreetly.

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
You call it educating ...I call it plain stupidity Many members on this site feel the same way.

When I share critical information it is with people I know and trust and do it discreetly.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you saying that the general public should not be educated on better ways to avoid being a victim of fraud?

[Les Quam]

Hylton,
Thanks for your time and efforts. From the pictures of the body panels I don't see a year? Is the year on there? Just looks like weeks?

In regard to educating crooks, I don't think crooks are coming to this sight looking for information. I think they have figured it out already through years of experience. The information gained here helps guys like me who want Chevy's to learn more. I looked for a Yenko Camaro or COPO for almost 20 years that had to have verifiable owners I could talk to and have bulletproof paperwork and be well known in the Yenko community before Colin found mine in Dave's collection last year. Not having solid information and being confident about how to verify a Camaro or Chevelle precluded me from being a part of Chevy world for a long time.

With my Fords and Pontiac's I at least had factory docs telling me what the car should be based on the VIN and I then verified the casting dates and owner history. With my Mopars the cars at least had a code in the VIN and a couple of other places it is found plus Galen's reputation after he inspects a car adds confidence when buying. But Ford and Pontiac factory docs gave me a big head start as opposed to starting from scratch with a Chevy.

Also, had I known about this sight and the amazing information and people on it I would have jumped in years ago. From my experience nothing runs or sounds like a big block Chevy but the fraud in Corvette world and Camaro world is simply rampant and rightfully scares away lots of buyers.

[wagonman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
good information!

it's info with pictures like this that will help in the sale of legit cars.....

possibly supercedeing any false paperwork or fake pop's...

[/ QUOTE ]

Granted sheetmetal stamping is well known, however critical pieces of knowledge should not be disclosed. I am not here to educate the crooks. You know what it takes to make a almost perfect clone and I won't be a part of educating counterfeiters & crooks to perfect their deceptive practices. You call it educating ...I call it plain stupidity Many members on this site feel the same way.



When I share critical information it is with people I know and trust and do it discreetly.

[/ QUOTE ]

hello,

i actually learned everything from several books from a very well known camaro author..it was quite helpful...

the information and recources are out there...you cant blame me for being stupid.

I know what it takes to make a almost perfect clone,but i'm honest enough to say so.
it's the cars that arent being disclosed that should worry you.this is what we need to educate againsed.


that descreet conversation your having with your freind is full of info we can find in books and on the net.musclecars have been around for decades now.

are you saying that only your self should know the answers?

if so then many people will get ripped off in fraudulant transactions.


a previous post indicated date stamps of body panels...

now tell me did he educate a counterfeiter or a possible buyer?

i say both..if both sides know the full story,then it would be more difficult to deceive.

i have not givin out out any information on how to create a perfect clone........

just information that it is being done............

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
Hylton,
Thanks for your time and efforts. From the pictures of the body panels I don't see a year? Is the year on there? Just looks like weeks?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, there is nothing to indicate year on the sheetmetal date stampings. If someone did collect pictures of these stampings and mapped them with the dates and VIN numbers of cars, I believe someone would be able to tell what year the sheetmetal part was made.

Over the year(s), there were certain adjustments and fitment issues which would help identify the timeframe which the part came from.

Collecting pictures of dates would help determine what year the part was built because you can look at exactly how the stamp was done. Lighter stampings and position of stampings are both traits which help establish when the stamp was made.


[ QUOTE ]
In regard to educating crooks, I don't think crooks are coming to this sight looking for information. I think they have figured it out already through years of experience. The information gained here helps guys like me who want Chevy's to learn more. I looked for a Yenko Camaro or COPO for almost 20 years that had to have verifiable owners I could talk to and have bulletproof paperwork and be well known in the Yenko community before Colin found mine in Dave's collection last year. Not having solid information and being confident about how to verify a Camaro or Chevelle precluded me from being a part of Chevy world for a long time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most crooks know how to build a successful fake/rebody/restamped car. The issue really is about how much effort does that crook want to go through to perfect his crime. I believe most of them think they are smarter then most buyers and thus do not need to go through the effort and expense of building a perfect BS'd car.

Nowadays, it's rarely worth it for fraudsters to go through the expense. The market is in the tank, real parts are still scarce or expensive and cars do not bring the money they used to. The issue is really about protecting the consumer from buying existing cars out there.

If Steve wants to hold onto information which can prevent others from getting screwed, that's his perogative but I also believe if you educate the public and in doing so, crooks are educated as well, it's still better than crooks being educated a bit and the public not being educated at all except for a select few.

[PeteLeathersac]

Beautifully put Hylton!.


Although I initially liked the Estes' tribute car itself, personally the restamps and 'documents' made me quickly lose any interest in the car whatsoever..

Each their own though...it's your car..

What I can't understand is if Wagonmeister has true concerns for those who may get shaken on cars w/ similar 'pedigrees', why be so clandestine about where these fictional POP's etc were obtained?.


~ Pete

[Stefano]

Crooks and dishonest people are everywhere, even our membership is not immune. Some of these guys think that just because they stamped their engines or swapped their VIN and trim tags 5,10,20 years ago that no one remembers.

I think it is just as bad when someone removes rare and valuable authentic GM parts from a well known car and replaces them with "junk" reproduction items and doesn't disclose that to the new buyer.

[67rscoupe]

If you ask me,i think wagon man has been very upfront on this project from the beginning.I read about in on TC before.He said it was not real.Why is everybody so worried about this one car?It could'nt be jealousy could it?I'm sure there are many others that are fakes but the owners are not fessing up to it.I dont have the experience that most expensive car collectors have.

This entire story has opened my eyes to possible fake cars.

Has it opened anybody elses eyes?
That has to be one of the most beautiful first generation camaros.

[Hylton]

Passenger door from an 05A 69 Camaro (N6408**) showing H18: