Selling Trim Tags ?????

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
Forst off,there are companies out there that have brand new blank trim tags and even protectoplates and the corect equipment to stamp them to say whatever you want them tosay.Why get tangled up in a build date/VIN sequence mismatch when you can nail al the numbers dead on?It is just one more reason why the value we place on our cars is really open to interpitation.

Right now we are facing the issue of repop bodies.It doesnt seem like an issue,but what is the difference between repoping entire bodies and hangining you vin tag onto it or just hangining every repop part on your existing VIN tag?

LEts say you see a combine mowing down a feild out in the middle of nowhere when all of a sudden the combine stops because something is stuck in it's blades?You get out to see what heppened,and it turns out that the combine driver just ran over a genuine RS/SS ZL1 Baldwin Motion Camaro.It is the only one ever build and from the alumimnum shards under the wheels of the combine you can see that the ZL1 mill is under the hood.You pick the car up and pencil trace the VIN,and apply for a title.Then you call up a few parts houses and order a new roofskin,full floorpans,a cowl panel and firewall sections,all the exterior panels,The trunk floor panels and all the rest of the stuff to restore the car.You then go on Ebay and buy a donor car for the subframe.The next thing you know,your camaro is reborn.This is about how far gone at least a 1/3 of all the remaining undiscovered supercars really are.So I guess it is all relitive.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is that you are restoring an existing car by removing and replacing rusted parts that were on it originally, not faking or creating another. If you look at the fine print on the new repro body shells, they specifically state "check with your local motor vehicle laws" about titling the car prior to purchasing the shell.

Until the laws are changed, it will still be a felony to rivet a VIN onto a car that it did not come on originally. Seriously, if people want to get some type of "restoration exemption" clause in the Federal and State statutes then they better start working their Senators and Congressman about it.

[RichSchmidt]

Thats pretty much how it is done.As it has been stated before,the law doesnt regard the trim tag as an actual document for the car.Changing the trim tag has the same legal reprecussions as restamping an engine block.Both are considred fraud,but since the law doesnt really place a value on what the trim tag or engine stampings are worth,it is a tough act to prosicute.If you purchase a car that is advertised as "all numbers matching",and you can prove that the engine is a restamp,you could stand a chance in court getting a refund if you could provide expert testimony to explain how the expession"all numbers" refers to the engine stampings and other components as well as explain how such a representation effects the value of the car,otherwise,the defendant could claim that he just meant that the title numbers matched the VIN on the dashboard,and the judge might be inclined to agree with him.

As for that scenerio that I mentioned about the replacment parts compared to the whole body,I was making light of the fact that many cars are restored and end up having no original structure or metal other then the VIN tag.If I were to find a crushed 69 camaro in the junkyard,pull it ou from the bottom of the pile,and start by placing the existing VIN tag onto a new repop cowl panel,then attaching the new cowl panel to some new toeboards,then attaching that to a new preassembled floorpan,and hangling some full rockers off of it,then adding some repop frame rails and a repop trunk floor and dropoffs,along with some repop inner roof structure,some reop fulll 1/4's,a repop roofskin and tail panel,some repop door sheels,and all the rest of the repop parts,how is it any different then just putting the tag on a repop body?How about if the car wasnt crushed,but rather totally rusted?How about if the job started with me welding a new cowl panel into the rusted hulk,then putting the tag on the new cowl panel,then replacing all the above mentioned parts one at a time?How about a law that makes it illegal to repair cowl boxes?Make it illegal to make any repairs to the cowl area of a car.If the car is so damaged that these areas need repaired,make it a law that the car must be proven destoyed in a metal shredder regardless of perceived or potential value.Race cars and wierd accidents would be no exceptions.

This is the problem with our hobby.Cars are selling for 10 times their book value for reasons that the law cant define.Take for example the proposed"all numbers matching" car that I mentioned above.Lets say that it was an RS/SS 68 camaro with an L78 4 speed and was 1 of 10 made in puke twist green.As such you payed 1 million dollars for the only know surviving example of such a car.As it turns out,the car and the trim tag are legit,but the engine is restamped.You feel that this devalues the car to be worth only $100,000 because there are 2 other NOM cars identical to yours in existance,but you payed the extra 900 grand for the numbers car.Should you get the 900 grand?Maybe only 200 grand?Whose to say?How about the guy who got scammed into buying a "numbers matching" white 327 powerglide 68 camaro on Ebay and found out that it had a 1976 pickup truck engine in it?He payed 10 grand for his car,but now it is only worth 9500.Can he still claim that he was robbed by as much as you were?Would any judge really want to touch that?As long as we continue to make it worthwhile for this business to exist,it will continue to thrive.

[Racefan]

What if I were to tell you that if you have seen a particular car whose VIN ends in xxxx56, you were seeing a duplicate of a car which is buried to the windshield frame in a ditch? But, the one you see has the correct tags in it. The hidden VIN is buried with the original hulk. Would anyone here have a problem with me digging up an old sYc and pulling the tags out of it and buying/selling them? My guess is that some who would defend the selling of trim tags would be outraged! I don't think it right to swap tags, nor do I think it appropriate to rebody cars either. Both can argue that they are only trying to make a car for thier personal enjoyment.....but two or three owners down the road someone gets taken! That is why when I am in the finishing process on my 68 sYc clone, I will make changes to the details to make it obvious. I don't want anyone accusing me of trying to dupe people. I like the looks, but it ill continue to carry its original trim tag and VIN.

[tirebird]

I love this thread. There is so much money running around on our cars that fraud is obviously part of the mix. I'll give my personal example to add to this brew.

A couple of years ago I sold my 69 RS Z28. I had orginal sales contracts, and receipts for repairs and the frame off restoration done by the owner before me. However, when this same owner restored the car he decided to freshen up the engine which unfortunately, included decking the original DZ 302 block. Well, he took the Vin# off the pad. We had the block date code, but the Vin# was missing.

My consignment dealer suggested we restamp the block. I told him that was foolish because we would have to disclose it to any future owner and I was unsure that any subsequent buyer would be told. He gave me a puzzled look and said that's his problem. Needless to say, I refused and the car still sold for a good price based on the date stamp and other information. I was amazed at how casual this and other fraud is. It's treated like a parking ticket.

[hep1966]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a trim tag from a 72 AMC Matador 4 door..first $5.00 takes it!

wilma

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 2 for 66 Chevelles. One for a SS hardtop, the other for a 2 door hardtop w/ a few options. Taking offers.

[TimG]

A few years ago I found a '65 Shelby in a field near Brady, TX (it ain't near anything). It was total trash, no tags to be seen, but the original Mustang ID number was there for my viewing. You can believe I took it down. I don't know the Shelby serial number, but the Mustang ID number was forwarded to SAAC.

[RichSchmidt]

What if I painstakingly unearthed that buried car when the tags were intact,and began replacng every single part on the car until it was restored.Since they make every single part including roof structures,firewall and cowl structures,frame channels,and full floorpans,it could be possible to resurect that car by simply welding one piece at a time of repop parts onto the existing upper cowl box with the vin and trim tag attached.How far is too far?In this day and age,ANY camaro can be restored with enough work,even one that was crushed in a car crusher.How do we draw the line.If replacing the frame of a car is too much and goes too far,then how about a mint original body shell with a backhalf job or a tube chassis under it,but mint roof,1/4's and firewal with all the numbers?Is it O.K. to fix such a car with repop or donor parts.My own car is pretty far gone,but it is still a real car.The roof could stand to be replaced because of many small dents and waves,both rear 1'4's were shot when I started on it,as wer both doors and fenders,and the front subframe was bent so bad that the wheels couldnt be pointed in the same direction even after substantial repair work.I replaced all the sheet metal,and replaced the subframe with a donor one.It is now a conglomeration of about 5 different cars.The firewall is hacked out along with the hidden VIN because it has spent most of it's life as a race car,so what should somebody do with such a car.The floors and rear rails were mint as were most of the internal structures,but it sure as heck cant be call"restored to original".

I would like to hear some opinions on how far we should go to restore a car.Back 20 years ago when some guy might have pulled the trim and VIN tag off his Yenko because he wrapped it around a pole,the thought was that a really dented car is worthless or unfixable.Today such a car might be considered an easy fix and be a very desirable find.

[Racefan]

Rich, here is another interesting question that has come up before. What if you were to dig the car up and restore it. Then call the Highway Patrol to verify the hidden VIN to title the car. Then on the search, they find that the VIN in question is already registered to someone!? What happens then? Who is in trouble? What if the orignal perpetrator has sold the car as real for a large sum of money and the new owner is completely convinced his car is real because it has all the right trim/VIN tags? So, the question comes back to which car is REAL? The one that you unearthed or the completely frame off beauty that sports the tags? According to the law the freshly unearthed car was the true car ending in VIN XXXX56. I wish I could say that this is only a "what if"......... but I can say with some degree of certainty that the situation is completely real. The only thing that is a "what if" is that no one has dug up the original XXXX56 YET. I have a gut feeling that there are more cars out there just like this, and there are those "in the know" who know about the questionable nature of them. But, no one is talking. I don't mean to bring this up to cause trouble or point fingers (that is why I don't mention any more specifics) but only to say that we can complain about the 'vette guys and so forth--but no group is without its skeletons. It, unfortunately, is a part of the game as soon as the values become what they have become.

[Rick H]

So let me se if I have this straight. I just found a 69 L78 that has been in storage for 20 years and is in excellent shape except of one area. The dash has rotted out because of the moisture that sits on them.

Show of hands that can relate to this scenerio.

Now I have to pass on the car because I can not legally remove the VIN tag, replace the dash panel and then reattach the VIN tag to the replacement panel? Technically the new dash is not original to the car.

Am I reading some of these responses correctly that once the VIN is attached to the car it may never come off the original metal it was attached?

Where do you draw the line on this??


Rick H.

[SamLBInj]

There really is no discussion. Its fraud, Period. How about this, Find a nice 1967, 327 engined convertible camaro, put on a new 4K tag found or made wherever, Plop in a L78 and all the nice big block stuff, now take the car to a non title state and register it and insure it as a SS , now sell it to a title state and the car is now transformed with documents...legal?