Window Stickers

[HawkX66]

Originally Posted by William

I have no problem with an owner displaying a repro doc at a show. Repro paperwork has no business being displayed with a car offered for sale.

Honestly, I think most of us are in agreement. We're just saying there's nothing wrong with having repro docs for show and personal enjoyment purposes. The problem is when it becomes a counterfeiting issue. As many have brought up time and time again, there are always going to be counterfeiters in everything that has profits attached to it. If anyone thinks stopping these few sellers is going to change anything, I think they're mistaken. It's way too easy in the computer age to recreate any documents.

[SS427]

If these reproduction paperwork sellers want to work with the car community and be on the up and up as well as not condone fraudulent use of their work, I would say the best thing to do on their webpages is to list every VIN of every car that they have made paperwork documents, POPs or cowl tags for. No invasion of privacy here, just a list of the VIN's and what was produced. No harm no fowl. However, when that is suggested everyone freaks out and says no way. Why is that? What are they trying to hide?

Some of this paperwork is getting extremely hard to prove is a reproduction as these guys are getting that good. Now a buyer hires an inspector to inspect a potential purchase and the inspector gives his thumbs up on the car and the paperwork only to find out later that the paperwork was faked. Now we have a liability issue as the inspection gave a letter of authenticity.

If there was a database then all that would have to be done is to look on that database to see that those items were reproductions. Since the reproducer of the paperwork claims they are not trying in any way to be fraudulent and the owner of the car and it's new paperwork claim they only want a facsimile of what GM offered for show purposes, I just cannot understand why no one wants these VIN's to be made public to protect future buyers.

The last thing that troubles me is all these fake pieces or paper are having an effect on cars that have legitimate paperwork and their value. I personally inspect dozens of LS6's around the country every year and have gotten to the point that I don't even want to see your window sticker, dealer invoice or POP as many of the reproductions are so good that you cannot tell the difference so in turn the real items have very little meaning or value anymore.

Bottom line is, if you want a facsimile of paperwork that could have been offered with your car, that is cool. Not wanting to admit that it is a reproduction, having it watermarked as such or having the information made public only shows me that you have something to hide. It is sort of like engine stamps. I would much rather see a CE block in a car than a restamped engine. A CE block leaves nothing to hide whereas a restamped block only puts up a red flag that there may be many other things about the car that are fraudulent.

Flame away.

[Verne_Frantz]

No flame here Rick. I agree with you completely. I do inspections and documentations as well and I'm afraid I might not be able to spot a good repro document (they are getting THAT good). I also have a car with its original docs and I'm afraid if I try to sell it, the docs won't add to the value as they should. And that's a real shame.

It's akin to someone creating fake DNA in a test tube. Then no one can believe the real DNA anymore.

Verne

[HawkX66]

Originally Posted by SS427

Not wanting to admit that it is a reproduction, having it watermarked as such or having the information made public only shows me that you have something to hide.

Not a flame, but to assume someone has something to hide because they might like to stay private is a slippery slope in the land of the free. That's the same mentality as the folks assuming someone wants to go on a killing rampage because they don't want to register their firearms. Spend your time going after the counterfeiters and other criminals, not guys you have no idea about. Or not...

[StealthBird]

I create reproduction window stickers for 1964-1979 Pontiacs. My window stickers are far more accurate than anything Pontiac fans have had before. I developed my own forms because other reproductions (that are laminated) use a somewhat generic window sticker blank, and sometimes they cover 3 different years with one form. As owners of high end Pontiac show cars become aware of the fact that their reproduction window stickers are inaccurate, they contact me and I create an accurate window sticker for them that's correct for the specific year, model, and plant where their Pontiac was produced. That being said, my reproduction window stickers are for show, NOT to be used to authenticate or validate anything. Thankfully, we have PHS as the rock solid proof against any dishonesty. But there is no way I can control what people do with a reproduction window sticker once they receive them.

However, on my window stickers, I have a very minor deviation from original that tells me immediately it's one of my reproductions and not an original just in case someone tries to age one of my reproductions. I do not disclose what that deviation is, but I have responded to many people asking if a specific window sticker on a car that's being sold is an original or a repop.

For those opposed to Chevrolet reproduction window stickers and docs, this seems to be a minor issue when you have hundreds of restamped blocks, carbs, rear ends, and all sorts of "date coding" going on with restored Yenkos, COPOS, and LS6 cars. Most high end resto shops have no problem restamping a block or carb to complete a "numbers matching" project.

Mike

[SS427]

Posting a car's VIN or at least enough information so that it can be compared to a car in question in no way discloses their personal information nor is it compromised in any way. I also do not believe it should be disclosed in any way nor was I implying that. However, the privacy of the car and/or it's paperwork should be public with regards to fake paperwork. We do that right here on the Yenko board with regards to Yenko VIN's, dealer info, paint color, transmission type and other information and no harm or compromised owner information what so ever. Actually quite the opposite.

I had a reproduction window sticker back in the 90's and in very small print it said "reproduction". I was not trying to make it into anything other than what it was. I have watched these car's reputations slip away over the last several years as many people have just gotten fed up with all the fraudulent things that are being done to this hobby and it sucks. I hear it every day from car owners that no longer have fun in the hobby and just want out. Reality and life's changes yes but it does not mean we should all just shrug it off and become complacent with it. I have NO issues with people creating reproduction cowl tags, window stickers, invoices, buildsheets, whatever, as long as they are upfront about it and most importantly, it is NOT the creator or the purchaser I am worried about, it is the next guy in line that gets screwed.

[HawkX66]

Originally Posted by SS427

Posting a car's VIN or at least enough information so that it can be compared to a car in question in no way discloses their personal information nor is it compromised in any way. I also do not believe it should be disclosed in any way nor was I implying that. However, the privacy of the car and/or it's paperwork should be public with regards to fake paperwork. We do that right here on the Yenko board with regards to Yenko VIN's, dealer info, paint color, transmission type and other information and no harm or compromised owner information what so ever. Actually quite the opposite.

I had a reproduction window sticker back in the 90's and in very small print it said "reproduction". I was not trying to make it into anything other than what it was. I have watched these car's reputations slip away over the last several years as many people have just gotten fed up with all the fraudulent things that are being done to this hobby and it sucks. I hear it every day from car owners that no longer have fun in the hobby and just want out. Reality and life's changes yes but it does not mean we should all just shrug it off and become complacent with it. I have NO issues with people creating reproduction cowl tags, window stickers, invoices, buildsheets, whatever, as long as they are upfront about it and most importantly, it is NOT the creator or the purchaser I am worried about, it is the next guy in line that gets screwed.

You make some great points Rick, but if the guys are getting out of the hobby because it's not fun any more to them based on the financial aspect of it, I don't think they ever really got it in the first place. That's a discussion for another thread though. Most of us look at these cars as more than just an investment. I know that's not all of us considering the dollars that are involved and I can appreciate that.
I don't want to see original cars not get the respect they deserve because in the back of everyone's mind they don't know if it's real or not. This is one of the reasons I don't care for clones. Back to my original point. Go after the con artists and counterfeiters and fry them. Make it something that's not worth doing anymore. Take action instead of everyone just looking at a known car rolling across the auction block while everyone just shakes their head and complains about it on the internet. Don't get me wrong, I know putting it on the net helps stop possible future issues for someone that actually vets their purchases...

[cook_dw]

Originally Posted by HawkX66

This is one of the reasons I don't care for clones.

What is the difference between say someone like me that has a "clone" car (my 67 car if anyone didnt know by now) and you having a repop window sticker?

[HawkX66]

Originally Posted by cook_dw

What is the difference between say someone like me that has a "clone" car (my 67 car if anyone didnt know by now) and you having a repop window sticker?

Thats a serious question Darrell? You've been around plenty long enough to know the difference... My laminated piece of printer paper would maybe get one over on a kindegardener, but that's about it. It's in a filing cabinet in my basement. My car has been verified original many times over, so this particular piece of paper means nothing to anyone, but me.

[cook_dw]

Hell yes its a serious question. YOU wont be the last person that owns that car (unless you are buried in it).. You are only the care taker for the next generation or owner. Im not saying you are gonna be the one that will deceive. But you will have NO control of what happens after you are dead and gone.


I am using you and I as examples because we are doing the talking currently.