Meaning of "numbrs matching" opinions please

[Salvatore]

I like cheez-its better with a

[nuch_ss396]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the NCRS will trademark 'numbers matching' term like they did 'Survivor' - or whatever word it was

I think the consensus is that the meaning has changed with the dollar values, whether we like it or not is irrelevant, so we come up with a new term to describe what was originaly intended: Born With, Original, etc.... Fun stuff eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Marlin,

Perhaps another factor in the change of meaning of "numbers matching"
is the age of the major components, wear and tear of SHP
parts, etc.. You have to admit, the further away we get
from the cars actual birthday, the more likely we are to
need replacement parts.

Where major wear components are concerned - like cylinder
blocks, transmissions and/or hear housings, once we are faced
with the prospect of replacing a "born with" part, we all are left
with the sobering thought of having to then jump into the
sea of "numbers matching" terminology.

I've mentioned this here many times before. SHP cars were
born and bred for racing. A normal part of that application
is blown drivetrains. I wonder how many of the Yenko's, COPO's,
Z/28's, L/78's, etc. actually have their "born with" drivetrains intact.

Again, I live in a glass house too, so no stone throwing here.

[LS6 RAT]

This has been a very interesting discussion, a lot of good opinions expressed.

Here's another interesting term to ponder about, what its true meaning infers...factory stock. When these words are used to describe a musclecars condition, my mind automatically assumes that nothing has been altered since factory assembly, however this term seems to be as loosely used as the above phrase we are discussing.

To me when someone says that their engine is stock, I take that to mean, no cylinder boring, no camshaft replacement, piston replacement, no porting, polishing, milling, decking. It should mean no altering of the engine assembly at all!

How many here are calling their 396, 427, 454 engines stock, but have an overbore?

[Salvatore]

Hey Warren, Now you are splitting hairs.

[RamAirDave]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps another factor in the change of meaning of "numbers matching"
is the age of the major components, wear and tear of SHP
parts, etc.. You have to admit, the further away we get
from the cars actual birthday, the more likely we are to
need replacement parts.

[/ QUOTE ]

While many of the SHP blocks were killed within the first several years of their lives, I would think there is a very small percentage of those that have been grenaded in the last 10-15 years or so.

I dont think the amount of "#s" engines has declined much in that time period, so I'm not sure that would be a reason for the "recent" change for the term "numbers matching".

[nuch_ss396]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps another factor in the change of meaning of "numbers matching"
is the age of the major components, wear and tear of SHP
parts, etc.. You have to admit, the further away we get
from the cars actual birthday, the more likely we are to
need replacement parts.

[/ QUOTE ]

While many of the SHP blocks were killed within the first several years of their lives, I would think there is a very small percentage of those that have been grenaded in the last 10-15 years or so.

I dont think the amount of "#s" engines has declined much in that time period, so I'm not sure that would be a reason for the "recent" change for the term "numbers matching".

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave,

I think you furthered my point. I agree that in the past
10-15 years many of these SHP cars have been babied. However,
the bulk of the cars already had suffered major component
failure. Remember, they were bought to beat & race. During
the mid to late 1970's almost every engine I took apart
had a rather large ridge at the top of the cylinder walls.

Some day when this non-sense is all over, we can sit down
and talk about how original our cars really are.

[TimG]

NCRS has not encouraged the restamping of engines and components. Owners make the decision to restamp engines and components to garnish the maximum points and values from their cars. There is no judging process more through or severe than NCRS as far as judging engine stamps goes. If an engine smells of a restamp from the standpoint of letters, numbers, or broach, it will be penalized points. They look for restamps and call them out (and really upset some owners).
Restamping has helped to dilute the value of the term "matching numbers". Before good restamps, "matching numbers" was interpreted as original engine. With the advent of good restamps, "matching numbers" no longer can be interpreted as original engine.
I've had many cars Flight Judged and never presented a restamped engine for judging, but there are many restamps present at NCRS events. They are severely scrutinized, especially at the Waco Regional where stamp judges attend in abundance.
Many an owner leaves disappointed with the decision the judges made about their stampings.
Actually, the judging process allows points for no VIN, no build derivatives or an engine from another car. You can easily Top Flight if you have a car with absolutely no build or VIN derivative. NCRS initiated this philosophy to specifically deter stamping an engine that is "correct" for a car. There is no "boxing" a car (no Gold if anything is non typical factory production on the pad) like you see at Bloomington. NCRS will welcome a car with absolutely nothing but a broach on a pad and will reward it with a Top Flight if the remainder of the car is Flight worthy.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Thanks for the insight Tim, it's good to understand the history behind the practice.

Help me with a few terms; what does 'boxing' mean? What is the difference (if any) between Bloomington, vs. NCRS, vs. Waco, vs. Top Flight? Or, are they all the same?

[TimG]

Marlin,

"Boxing" means that if there are any inconsistencies in the engine casting date, casting number, VIN derivative, assembly derivative or broach marks, the car is not eligible to receive a Bloomington Gold award regardless of the final score. The car is "boxed" from receiving a Gold award even if it scored 99% in all the other areas. This is different than NCRS where you are allowed to put a virgin block in a car with the correct casting date and casting number and you would only loose 25 points for the VIN derivative and 25 points for the assembly stamping (out of 4,500 total).

This is essentially the same deduction as you would receive if your antenna did not raise properly (25 points) and if your cigarette lighter did not heat up properly (25 points). Your car could still easily receive a Top Flight award with a completely different motor in the car, say from another car. Total deduct would be 25 points if the assembly stamp, casting date, casting number and broach were intact.

The Waco, TX fall Regional event is probably one of the largest and most difficult NCRS events with the exception of the National NCRS event and the January Regional in Florida. For some reason, all the Master Judges like to come to Waco in Fall. It's a great, small town and the accommodations are nice as is the weather. Consequently, we have very tough judging. It is said that if a car can receive a Top Flight at Waco, it will probably receive a Top Flight at the NCRS Nationals and would probably receive a Bloomington Gold. The Waco, TX Regional event that is held in Fall is an NCRS event.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Excellent explanation, thanks. One final clarification; is the Bloomington judging/award independant of the NCRS? If so, why are two sanctioning bodies?