Window Stickers

[cook_dw]

Regardless what anyone thinks about all of this.. As long as there is money to be made things will be reproduced or faked. Thats just the way it is..

[SS427]

Originally Posted by cook_dw

Regardless what anyone thinks about all of this.. As long as there is money to be made things will be reproduced or faked. Thats just the way it is..

You are absolutely correct Darrell but that does not mean we cannot police our own people a little better or try to get them to conform a little better (like the producers of products) to try and keep things a little more legit. After all, if we do not buy they do not sell. If we just throw up our hands every time someone commits fraud they will win every time. I have already helped put one guy in jail for building a fake LS6 and passing it off as one, am involved in a lawsuit of another and will do it again without batting an eye.

I lose a little money every year because I do not allow fake cars in my shop. If some of these producers kept things on the up and up (making VIN's available) they would lose a little business as well to those people that are knowingly trying to pass something off and don't want to get caught. I guess my reputation and honor is more valuable than the dollar so maybe I sit alone on these thoughts.

[cook_dw]

Rick dont worry. Im not throwing my hands up. Im just trying to take notes and trying to keep track and keep up..

[fsc66]

I have refrained from chiming in as this is a topic because people are very passionate about this subject.
Let's be rationale about this and try to separate the people that will create documents for any car regardless of its rarity or obscurity as long as they see green from the people that actually check into these rare and high value cars and ensure they are what they say. If not, advise the customer the documents will all have watermarks on them unless the information can be corroborated.
Let's also separate the people who will answer anyone who asks as to whether documents they come across are in fact their reproductions. Let's also separate the people who help others identify reproduction documents whenever they are asked whether theirs or someone else’s. Now let's look at the majority of the reproduction documents that are advertised as authentic and who is reproducing those. Let's also look at who reproduces documents that are never found on sites selling cars advertising the docs to be authentic.
When a person knows that the reproduction company will never authenticate their own documents it acts as a deterrent to advertise these docs as real.
We cannot just pile everyone in the same barrel and declare them all as frauds or persons that are helping perpetuate fraud.
I will never make any real money doing this because I think we all know where the real money is.
It would be nice to have a Reproduction business advertised in the GM Heritage documents of various makes and models like another company. It would be nice to be listed as a recommended and paid vendor on various NCRS sites also…..
But for small businesses that are more hobbyists than businesses that will probably never happen.
No One is going to provide a list of VINs of car they have worked on documents for but I also doubt other companies out there would state that they would also help identify any of the documents they have reproduced and identify them as such.
So, let’s please try to separate companies out there, there are vast differences in the manner in which we conduct our businesses.
I maintain ethics and integrity in what I do and wish all the other companies would do the same. I turn down at least 20% of orders I receive knowing the cars are clones advertised as authentic. It’s great having experts in each model to corroborate with to ensure cars are what they are purported to be or not to be. We also have some great sites which I regularly visit where advertised cars are called out as being fakes, clones, frauds, etc. to keep an eye out for.
Now I suspect I opened a can of worms but I stand behind what I do so let’s see where this goes.

Paul

[SS427]

Thanks for chiming in Paul. You have always been very helpful to me when I have contacted you regarding documents that I have come across and for that I thank you.
Rick

[fsc66]

And I completely support all you do to bring integrity to this great hobby. I wish all the other restoration shops were as vigilant as you are, exemplifying high level of ethics within your business.

Paul

[Mr. Chevy]

The work Paul just did for me was for my 67 Impala. I have the original protecto plate and owner's manual for the car but that was it for original documents. The original owner who I bought the car from did not save the window sticker. The one Paul made for me was basically an exact duplicate of the original and included all options for the car. Nothing was deviated from what the car actually is. The original owner really "got a kick" of the reproduction window sticker and basically authenticated it, even corroborating the actual cost.

Now IF I sold the car I would include this window sticker with the sale of the car and of course not say that it was the "real deal" but that it is as close as it gets to same. This plus the fact that it is just a neat item to have with the car is basically why I had Paul make the sticker and might I add did a fine job with it...

Rich

[Mr70]

I have a Triple A reproduction window sticker for my Chevelle,that I display at shows/cruises,for the uniformed to understand what options it came with originally & what they cost.
Without it,many of them would never spot the details my car has like an L-78,TH-400,Tach,4.10 posi or in dash 8tk tape player.The fact that the Magnum 500 (SS) wheels were included seems to also be real conversation piece with many.
But the prices these options cost back then are the real head turner,which they always seem to point to and call out while looking at it.
I tell all while looking @ it,it's not the original WS also.

But this window sticker starts & ends with me,as the day I sell my car,I'm shredding it up.If the new owner wants one,he can just submit the info from the Original build sheet like I did & have one made up too.I wish more owners would do the same,as well as it would increase business for people like Paul & Mike.

[Lee Stewart]

I don't know if this will help but let me offer an analogy . . .

I have a collection of books - well over 1000 hardcover books - all fiction. Books can be like cars - they are scored based in their condition, if they are a First Edition and did the author sign the book. A few of my books are worth well over $500 each because they have all three: excellent condition, First Edition and the author's signature. These books are 30 to 40 years old.

Many times a new author will get a limited printing of his/her first book. This means that all copies are First Editions so that criteria no longer applies.

So here is what I want to do - you tell me if I am being unethical . . .

I have a good (not excellent) condition book from a VERY popular author. It's his first book. I want to go to a book signing where he will be present signing his latest book and get him to sign my collectors book. By doing so it will raise the value of the book from $500 to $2500.

Once signed there is no way to tell he didn't sign it 40 years ago when the book first came out. Remember - it's HIS signature, not a forgery.

Oh . . . BTW . . . I paid 50 cents for the book at a yard sale 25 years ago.

That extra $2000 would mean a lot to me. I could really use it.

Ethical? Unethical?

[fsc66]

Very good Lee, so follow me here. Let's use a similar scenario that we are all familiar with, sports. You have an old baseball and get one of the old players to sign it. There are always at sport shows and charge for each autograph. You get your old ball signed and pay the baseball player. Is the baseball player a fraud and is he perpetuating fraud for signing an old ball knowing full well that he now brought increased value to the ball? I think not. Now, if you try to sell the ball and give the impression that the ball was signed years ago making it even more valuable, then you fail the integrity test and ethics test, now don't you.

Paul