rebodied with out salvage a title

[RichSchmidt]

Here is some other trival information on this subject.A car doesnt have to be damaged to be a repair liability.Did you know that doing simple things like adding bolt in frame connectors,traction bars,a strut tower brace or even a fiberglass hood to your car cant leave you open to lawsuits your insurance company dont cover?You may think nothing of buying a late model mustang,adding some frame connectors and a strut tower brace to it and thinking you did the world a favor.If you were to T-bone somebody with such a car and the crumple zones didnt crumple correctly,you could end up being in for a hard luck trip to the courthouse.If you are lucky,the damage will be limited to yourself and your insurance company not wanting to pay for your broken kneecaps,but if you fortifed hot rod were to plow into the side of somebody's car rather then crumple upon impact,you could be looking at loosing everything you own,even despite your million dollar liablity coverage.A good lawyer is going to look for a reason to hang you out to dry.When he sees those bright yellow slapper bars hanging under your springs,and he wants to know what they are for,and you tell him they help give the car more traction,and then he consults with an expert on how if they give a car better traction why dont all cars have them,and the expert tells him because slapper bars can cause the rear axle to lift under very hard breaking and cause the car to not stop straight,guess what he is going to look to pin the accident on.Not the little old lady who blew the light in front of you{his client}but rather on your super modified race car that was modifed in such a manner as to be unsafe for street use.
So with that said,there is a lot of potential liability in the automotive business.

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
"I went back and read the original post and I think in all of this we have still missed one point. If the unibody on a camaro was really that bad and say it was a COPO, etc. and did indeed need to be totally replaced, how would you really know? If there were people who were familiar with the car they may tell. The people doing the work may tell. The owner may tell. What if no one tells? "


Well the real point may not relate to the ethics of it but rather to the fact that it is illegal and a major felony to remove the VIN from one car to attach it another. Just replacing panels or a roof, or a trunk floor or bent frame rails is considered repairing in the eyes of Uncle Sam and the Federal Criminal Code. Whether it is for altruistic reasons: saving a rare car, or for selfish reasons: to scam the big $$$ out of someone, the perpetrator still is risking a lot: jail time if he doesn't have money and big lawsuits if he does. -NJSteve

[Norm reynolds]

Ed I am glad that we can agree to disagree I was not coming out here to put you down or pick a fright with you That is no my stile In Philly when it stops snowing by god you better get out and shovel your side walk with in a hour Because we have people going around and when they see a un-shovel walk way they go to the police and make out a report that they fell on your walk way the police go s out and sees that your side walk is not cleaned up and then they will then fine you Then you hear from an attorney that you are being sued. Now the kicker is the person that is suing you never fell on your sidewalk they make shore that no one is around so it s just their word for it Just look at what happen to McDonalds when some one sued because their coffee was to hot Today we live in a world that is full of nut cases I guess that what Ian saying in today’s society our have to be reel careful My wish would be to turn the clock back to 1960 to a more simpler time

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
"Just look at what happen to McDonalds when some one sued because their coffee was to hot"

As a result of that lawsuit, now McD's has put the warning on the bottom of the cup so you have to turn it over to see that it says: "Caution Dummy You Just Poured Hot Coffee On Your Genitals"

I have been watching this post with a lot of interest as it was my original post on the Yenko, that re-newed the interest in discussing this topic. While my original post wasn't meant to do anything more than tell a story of a real car, and how it was used, I think the "debate" generated by it is good for the hobby.

In this day of high dollar restorations, and ever increasing car prices, one must be especially careful as to what is bought and the "proverance" behind a car. This website (while a great place for information) has "pushed" the prices on certain cars to levels that are more than most houses. The people responsible for the escalation of the values, routinely trade cars amongst themselves and each time the cars' "value" increases while the "history" might become "blurrier." Let's face a reality..show me over the last 2 years the number of "supercars" that have sold outside of this group..I would bet it is less than 5%...In my opinion (again it is an opinion)this has created a "false" market..one that is filled with specualtion. While we hear what cars "sell" for is it truely the amount of actual money that changes hands?? If I sell a car to a fellow collector in actual cash for $75k, but I make a deal with the new owner to "publicize" the price was 100k, doesn't it become a "win win" for both parties??? The new onwer gets a car that has a higher value attached to it, so if they sell it he can fetch more money and the former owner can say he sold a "higher" priced car thereby "increasing" his prominence and "worth" in the hobby. The cars themselves don't change..only the "perceived" value...

This is where the whole "re-body" issue comes into play...I know in new cars and "regular" everyday cars things go on..It is true that replacing every sheetmetal panel on a car is pretty damn close to "re-boding." However in this hobby, what is perceived by the masses as "acceptable," is sheetmetal replacement..not cutting a firewall out and welding in another body shell. Therefore when the topic comes up and a specific car is mentioned it generates controversy.

The people that don't want the topic brought up are the same people that are routinely trading cars and escalating the value. If one car is brought to light, surely others will follow. If this happens then the perceived value of ALL the cars might be questioned. If I own a Yenko with a "pedigree" and there aren't any "issues" then my car might go up..if that "pedigree" is somewhat "murky" then it very well might decrease as a result of the "public" becoming educated. Anytime people get educated they ask questions..with these questions comes a desire to have answers...with the answers comes possbile "de-valuation.." This is something the specualtors and majority of people here can't have..

The main reason why I think some people here found my post controversial wasn't because I told about a particular car. After all it didn't name the current owner, and I researched the car for 2 weeks before even posting the facts as I knew them..It is these "facts" that some here DON'T want mentioned or discussed..According to most I spoke with this particular car was known to be "questionable" to those in the core group of Yenko owners, and if the current owner bought the car with all the info. then why should he be ashamed or embarrassed?? He shouldn't..The problem is becase others don't want "outsiders" questioning THEIR cars,as a result of info being shared... The mentality is if a guys car is discussed then "my" car can be,...and MAYBE "my"car won't stand up to the scrutiny..

I really don't think in the late '80's or really up til the late '90's, anyone would have suspected that a guy in VA (me for instance) AND NOT being in the "core" collector "fraternity" would have been able to know the history of a car residing in the mid-west and be able to track it down..It is because of the internet that the world has gotten really small..The point is what was done on certain cars back in the days before the internet can now be discussed globally..If in the early '90's I wanted a Yenko I more than likely had to get Hemmings, or go to a show and get into the "gang" of guys that owned them..Today I can find one in a different region of the US using the internet, and the "history" of a car can be traced..This means that the info can't be controlled among the "core" group of collectors..So any car that has a history that isn't as "clean" will eventually be found out..This also means that some collectors might have to explain certain things..This means some guys will find the car they bought for 150k, might only be worth 100k..Look at the number of Yenkos and ZL1's that are known..They made 69 1969 ZL1's yet we know of 40 something cars...Is it not unreasonable to think a factory race car would actually be used and abused..thereby since the majority of the cars appear "stock" some might be re-bodies..Do we really think people bought a Yenko as everyday transportation??? No..they were used and abused. Hence if the vast majority are now "stock" appearing then some cars might have "issues."

I actually spoke to the person named in my original post as having "located" the Yenko from Mike. He seemed like a nice guy..I was out of line to mention an event I had heard about from others..(the stamping of an engine) and for that I'm truly sorry..He neither confirmed NOR denied what was done to the Yenko mentioned, only stating it was a "race car" and that the sub-frame was replaced...When he bought the car I think he was doing what he perceived as the right thing based on the condition of the car..does it make it less of a Yenko...not in my book..BUT it does make it less valuable to me than a car with an original shell..I think the "locater" probably told the guy he sold it to what the deal was..but since it is a "tight" community the info might not have been passed to the current owner..Who knows??

The basic question in all of this is..What is a car??? Is it an original dash with VIN, cowl and maybe a steering column as I believe (my opinion) the case here, or is it an original body shell..??? To me it is the latter...That however is a question of personal preference...

[bbg]

Hey njsteve,

I agree with you about the legal issues. My question to you and the group is if this was done how would you know this had happened? You would not have anything to go by except the finished product that set before you. Through examination of the car how could you say with certainty this had occured? Heresay doesn't hold up in court, ( or not most of the time anyway) and there would be no physical evidence. How about that new unibody? How can you use that if you can't number it? I don't know how the paper issues would have been handled but in 1974 I worked at an AMC dealership and you could buy a whole unibody from the factory which they referred to as a body in white. The purpose was to replace the structure on a badly damaged car by taking all the mechanicals and transferring them over to the new body. You could get them in colors and were actually available during the current production of the body. They were generally not available after the current body production had stopped. I suppose this could get to be a bit of a touchy thing as no one wants to encourage this nor wants to fall victim to it, but other than fear of prosecution or ones on ethical feelings toward the subject how would you know? I would think that if an original camaro unibody was used and the date codes on the sheetmetal were within the production date of the original car, the unibody was either chemically stripped or sandblasted to remove all old traces of paint and the car then assembled and restored you would not know. I think it is like all other criminal activity. We only know what the ones did that have been caught. The successful ones have gotten away with it and I bet someone is driving one of them right now. Whether we like it or not, the truth is the truth and it is what it is.

[Norm reynolds]

I have a question we all know that there is a vin number behind the heater box
Is it possible there are more hidden vin numbers that the general public is not aware of
I do seem to remember when my neighbors car was stolen it was years later the state police contacted him that they found some parts of his car on another car I seem to remember something about hidden vins that only law enforcement knows about
I just called my neighbor to ask him how did the police trace the parts form his old car
He said that all the state police would say that every car has many hidden vin numbers that only law enforcement knows about Now I am not saying this to be a fact but how many people that have restored a car looked at every square inch of that body Is it possible??? I really don’t know for shore Is this just something new in the last few years or has this always been there and no body knows or never notice . Food for thought. It just got me to thinking on what Ed said how would some one know if a car was re-body

[budnate]

I never looked but was told in the wiper-arm tray of the cowl is also stamped on the pass side, anyone else hear or confirm that.

Bud.

[RichSchmidt]

Numbers swapping in an issue with all old cars.In the northest,there are some odd laws that would lead somebody to believe that certain cars could never be titled.The loosening of some of these laws is giving car resorers more options then they had before.In states like New York,if a car changes hands and is never regiatered{like a race car would},there is no transfer of ownership,and no title.If the car changed hands multiple times there would be no paper trail to find it.Since many hot rodders were afraid of trying to do a title search on a shady car,they found it easier just to swap the numbers with one of the zillions of base model rust buckets that are available for the cost of a 6 pack of beer.Over the last few years,the laws have loosened up,and you an go to DMV with a pencil trace of the VIN and chances are they will give you a hassle free title or the contact to the last known legal owner of the car so that you can arrange for them to assist you.I live in Jersey,and until this day,they have towns that release impounded auction cars with junk titles.The town will tell you that the car is listed as crushed by the state,and that it can never be titled ever again.Well since most of these cars are perfectly fine cars that the owners didnt want to pay the $100 a day storage fees on{especially since some cars have to stay in the pound for over a month until a case goes to court},there are plenty of base model cars in the junkyards that were bought bulk bid from local impound auctions.A local junkyard old me I can get a title for one of these cars using conventional title search means,so there may be some hope,but to some 18 year old kid who bought one as a parts donor for his 1979 camaro hot rod that is rusted beyond repair,all he is looking at is that he can swap his mag wheels and cherry bomb mufflers onto it in about 2 hours and be driving a more solid car then his current one if he simply springs for a box of window ribbon and some pop rivets.I think my own personal car my suffer that affliction.I know my car was first built as a race car back in the early 80's,and that it was bought from a local impound yard as a junk car,and yet it sports a perfectly clean title and the VIN tag sits a little crooked under the dash.Since my car started life as a 1973 pontiac esprit with a 350 2 barrel and green paint,and is now a decked out race car with a bigblock chevy and mostly fiberglass body panels,I dont think anybody really cares what the title on my car says as long whoever holds it can legally lay claim to the car,and register it with plates if they choose.I have no proof of this numbers issue on my car,but it sure looks a little suspect.When I bought my car the front subframe was bent from too many wheelstands,so I had to replace it,and the firewall has pretty much been cut apart for every hop up mod under the sun,and the original drive line went into the metal shredder about 20 years ago,so there isnt much left on the car with numbers on it aside from a tin plate on the dash.Who is to know and who really cares.I have owned the car for almost 15 years,and anybody who would buy it would buy it because it is my race car not because it is a real 1973 firebird esprirt.In the case of somebody paying 100 times the base model value because the numbers came back to it being a real live supercar,that is a different story.I hate the way the goventment ran many of it's motor vehicle operations,and therefore I dont really shun guys who would swap a few numbers just to get some paperwork on their car instead of dealing with beurocracy,but I would never be able to bring myself to swap numbers from a wrecked supercar onto a clean base model as a way to defraud somebdy into believing that what they were really buying was a clean original supercar.I do have some morals.

[RichSchmidt]

Heres a rebody story that might make you laugh a bit{well actually it never happened but almost did}.My father drives a super clean 1983 Old's 98 that he reuses to part with.When New Jersey came out with then new IM 240 inspection program,and the propoganda around it claimed that big brother could take your car away from you at the end of the inspection line if it failed t meet these super stringent new standards after 3 attempts and that high tech tracking systems would eliminate the bogus testing that was going on in the past.My father was not too happy about that.I read the paper and it said that car made before 1980 werent subject to the testing.I just smirked and told him we needed to start combing the papers for a 1979 Old's 98 4 door that we could swap numbers with.He didnt like what i had to say,but he knew it was one way out of beating them at their own game.Luckily for him,the test wasnt as strict as everybody first believed,and his car squeaked through.If what the propoganda said was true,I figure i would have been getting a call inquiring about how to make those funny little starr shaped rivets about 2 months after his inspection expired