Collector Car Fraud!!! - Page 5

BARN FIND · #41 08-12-2006, 07:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Verne, you got some bad info, I have a book of records that go back much further than '72. The 'flood' is a commonly used excuse, but when pressured the DOT will only call it 'an error'

My '69 must be cursed because it's not in the NICB database either

[/ QUOTE ]

How extensive are your records going back to 1972. I am interested in the PA records between 71 and 78.

**Lynn** · #42 08-14-2006, 11:07 PM

Wanted to ad my 02 cents. Lots of valid points. Les, you are correct in many ways. However, even with a Camaro, it MAY be possible to prove fraud. It just takes some investigation and a little luck. VIN searches that are usually off limits are available for "investigation in anticipation of litigation". I was able to pinpoint the timeframe when a fake X33 tag was installed on a car. I realize it may not be that easy each time.

No, we can't stop every case, but I honestly believe we can stop the most blatant ones.

I have a case pending against a dealer in Southern Oklahoma. Email me if you want a copy of the Petition. It is a monster file in tif format, about 8.5mb. Frankly, I don't care if I have to hound the seller the rest of his life, as long as he quits committing this kind of fraud.

A judgment based on fraud is NOT dischargeable in Bankruptcy.

For those who believe it is "all" on the buyer to determine, I must respectfully disagree. Sure, diligence in having the car checked out thouroughly is great. However, if someone represents the trim tag info as correct and original KNOWING that it is a fake tag (especially when he put it on there) a novice buyer should be able to rely on that information. That isn't puffery. It is fraud. For those reading this who may have been burned by obvious fraud, and have sought help from private attorneys without luck, contact your state's Attorney General. Most states have consumer fraud divisions. You may need to do some of your own investigation, but it is another avenue worth pursuing.

Lastly, if you know anyone in your state legislature, request a meeting. Tell them about the rampant fraud being perpetrated with these fake (notice I did not call it a REPRODUCTION - IT DOES NOT REPRODUCE anything 99.9% of the time) trim tags, and ask if they will consider sponsoring a bill that will outlaw the sale of those tags "for use in the state of __________". I have just requested such a meeting, and hopefully by this time next year, it will be illegal to sell a fake tag for use in Oklahoma.

Will keep you posted.

Lynn Bilodeau

elcamino72 · #43 08-17-2006, 12:48 AM

Alright guys, I have the website up and running. Please bookmark it so that you can easily find it in the future.

http://www.dcdlaw.net/carfraud.htm

68SSCamaro · #44 08-31-2006, 10:06 PM

Are you able to obtain the NICB microfiche records for an open case? Maybe a way to get them for a car?

L30M20 · #45 09-01-2006, 08:22 AM

Hello everyone, Very interesting topic. I always try to follow a simple rule when looking to purchase, or purchasing a car. Price ratio/documents supplied- If not documents can be supplied the car should be priced and purchased as a "Clone". And the purchse price should reflect that. If the new owner later locates legal, truthfull documentation about the car, then so much the better. We all know about the "aged" build sheets from our friend B from up North, with the laser printed sheets on modern paper, as stated in previous posts, the paper can be carbon dated if in doubt. Whats $500-$1000 on a 6 figure car? Why is that all these aged build sheets have a rusty spring imprint on them????? All sheets found by individuals haven't been found carefully tucked between spring row 1 and row 6. He-He And while i'm ranting, why is it that every 1000 point, best of best yada-yada cars have a pretty dark blue ac oil filter showing on all those 47 underbody shots. My god man, can't you simply buy a couple extra filters, scuff, and spray can them gloss white? Or spring for the 28 bucks and get the Genuiene Imitation GM filter. Well anyway the moral of my story: NO LEGITIMATE DOCS=BUY AT CLONE PRICE,no matter what B.S.that uncle al's sisters-in-law told you about how it was stored at her uncles mothers house since new and she worked for the dealer that sold the car. Behind every car/owner ther is always a story, always. Later, craig--Oramac Restoratios

**HEMIBEE** · #46 09-01-2006, 08:12 PM

you can also go through the BS of flying to look at a car and makeing the buy, and when the car shows up, HU!!! wrong carb, hemi radiator is now a 318 unit,only a few digits off but there is 2000.00 diff, even the distributor and alternator, you know what i mean, your parts will be on ebay and its your word and the sellers word and he is out of state, seen this before, so even going and looking yourself might not even be enough in some cases.

FallbrookAMO · #47 09-01-2006, 10:17 PM

Excellent discussion. Unfortunately, I am entering this subdued fray a little late, however I am entering with all good intent. I am now 47 years old. From the time I was licensed to drive, I was a tried and true Chevy enthusiast. I owned these cars in the 70s when cloning was absolutely unheard of. 69' Chevelle 396/375s, 70' 1/2 350/360 Z/28s, 69' DZ 302s, Novas', Impalas, Vettes, etc, etc. You name them, I owned them.

At this point, I would not touch a "collectable" Chevy with a ten foot pole. Even with my level of experience and expertise. Vehicle fraud runs absolutely rampant amongst this mark, and as one individual previously stated, factory documentation in terms of trim/vin tags was minimal at best.

For the past 10 years or so, I have been an avid collector of AMCs. Do a Google search under "Ed Buscis". AMCs are.....peculiar, to say the least. However, engine/trans combinations are clearly designated in the vin. Trim codes, (interior and paint) are clearly stated on the trim tag. The dollar amount commanded for these vehicles was never significant (until as of late). For many years, these aforementioned factors helped to provide a "safer haven" for the AMC collector.

Now??? The same disgusting scumbags have infiltrated this marketplace also. So, as far as I'm concerned, ultimately two major important elements will help to protect yourself.

One. Due diligence.

Two. Caveat emptor.

I praise ANYONE for the noble cause of attempting to create and maintain a high degree of integrity in this marketplace. But with all due respect.....Good Luck. It seems to me that deception has become a greatly crafted, and finely honed skill for many of these dishonest individuals.

And ultimately? It is we, as the buyers and sellers of these vehicles, that will take the ultimate responsibilty for our actions. Crying over spilled milk, and then retaining the services of a skilled attorney to attempt to correct our mistakes, draws a close parallel to bringing a box of Band-Aids to a Russian Roulette party. Maybe you shouldn't of went in the first place.

Just my 2 cents.

Most Respectfully,
Ed Buscis

elcamino72 · #48 09-05-2006, 03:46 PM

Ed, I very much appriciate your taking the time to post what you did. You are correct, due diligence and caveat emptor will only get you so far as you also noted. Even you with experience would shy away from a Chevy; this is precisely the reason I started this. I can't imagine the feeling in your stomach when you realize that you just spent six figures on a car only to find out it's worth half that because it's a clone, but was sold as an original. At that point, the hobby needs a place to turn, that's where my firm comes in, we can help you at that point. Stuff happens to good people, you do your homework, you do everything, but you bring the car home and you have been out foxed, the car has been misrepresented and fraud has occurred. At that point, you can email me, call me or check out the website www.dcdlaw.net/carfraud.htm and perhaps we can help. We've already been able to help several individuals in just this short period of time.