Collector Car Fraud!!!

elcamino72 · #1 08-08-2006, 07:10 PM

Hey guys, I've been a member here for many years and just recently graduated law school. In the time I've spent reading the posts on this board as well as many others, I have noticed that collector car fraud is a BIG RACKET and something needs to be done. I recently took a job with an energetic law firm which I was able to talk into pursuing collector car fraud cases in Pennsylvania. These cases would include cars sold on fraudulent built sheets, protecto plats, window stickers, etc. Also restamped engines, VIN and Cowl Tags, misrepresentation of a restoration, inherent diminished value, auction problems (ebay scams), estate issues (wills devising classic cars to charities, trusts, heirs, etc.).

There are more '69 Z28 Camaros out there today than GM built, same with '57 Fuelies. If anyone out there knows of anyone who was ripped off buying a fake car that was sold as genuine, please point them in my direction and we can finally get some much needed justice. I have nothing against clones, but it is against the law to misrepresent a vehicle to another person (telling someone it's an SS when it really started life as a 307cu., etc.)

I can be contacted at:

Bryan W. Shook
The Law Offices of Darrell C. Dethlefs
2132 Market Street
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania 17011
(717) 975-9446
[email protected]

I'm working on updating the website and this field of law will soon be included. www.dcdlaw.net

rsatz28 · #2 08-08-2006, 07:13 PM

Ngtflyr · #3 08-08-2006, 07:22 PM

Awesome, I assume your firm will only deal with cars bought in Pennsylvania. If so, at least it is a start and knowing lawyers it won't go unnoticed by other firms and hopefully some firms in other states will look into it. I'm thinking some of you "experts" could make some $$ as an "expert witnesses" when a case comes up. Can't believe I am encouraging lawyers, but something has to be done to put the brakes on this trend.

Hylton · #4 08-08-2006, 07:28 PM

I can forward you the names of a few victims but they are not necessarily from PA.

elcamino72 · #5 08-08-2006, 08:37 PM

We can intially handle any case. If the case were to have to go to court, we would have to refer the case to a local lawyer in the state where suit would have to be filed, but we can certainly handle the case.

Keith Tedford · #6 08-08-2006, 10:51 PM

When selling a car, it might be wise to take a lot of pictures in case of problems down the road. A full description of the car, acknowledged with the signature of the buyer, might be good as well. Down the road,if the car were to be built into a fake, you would have a defense. When the faker is caught he will probably try to blame one of the previous owners which might be you. It's getting to the point where I don't even want to sell any of our cars without involving a lawyer. Too bad.

**firstgenaddict** · #7 08-08-2006, 11:18 PM

I am giving an atta boy to a lawyer... what is the world coming to?
Go get them... there is way too much fraud going on nowadays with the faked build sheets, POP's etc.
I believe that ebay will give out info on the sellers as well as the buyers id's if hit with a lawsuit.
Plus the paper can be tested to determine the chemistry used to during the pulping process.

king_midas · #8 08-09-2006, 12:53 AM

Hey Brian,

A nice and very noble idea, and I hate thieves too. But, some real issues to think about when getting involved in something like this:

1. It's very difficult to establish the "expert" status that is necessary to prosecute a fraud. Any transactions that are not via a dealer will not be prosecutable within a court of law.
2. Dealers, when faced with prosecution, will most likely squirm like an octopus in a bucket. Or, they will simply go out of business and hide behind the protection of being incorporated. Like they say, you can't get blood from a turnip. When faced with paying out, you gotta think a dealer would simply say "The company doesn't have the money" or, "that motor was correct when I sold it". A phony photo of some casting numbers, a Photoshop session, and voila-- Original, matching numbers after-the-fact. The criminal mind is devious.
3. You already identified perhaps your biggest problem-- Establishing jurisdiction, and handling by-state lawsuits. A logistical nightmare to say the least, especially when people/titles/registrations move often, etc... Yikes.

I think there is a reason you don't see lawyers messing around with collector car fraud. The problem you have currently is that musclecars are far too common-- There are lots of them, they share parts, ownership changes seeminly exponentially-- Fradulently sold cars may have changed hands numerous times over the years, and how do you determine culpability? "I didn't do it" is a likely response. A chain of lawsuits will not get anyone anything. Now, if you're talking about a Ferrari 250 GTO or some kind of an exotic, then you've got something to base a lawsuit upon-- Owner history is much more direct, and most importantly, there is enough money within the suit to make it worth your while.

The best defense is, and has always been, being an informed buyer. The way the market currently is, non-knowledgeable buyers will get burned. There's too much hype, and demand equals opportunity. I can personally remember looking at Hemmings in the mid-to-late 80's and thinking that there are more 435 Corvettes than they ever produced, so the currently state of affairs is nothing new. It's much like that old saying, that the biggest lies are done right out in front of people.

Anyone that is buying a '69 Z has to know that the odds of it being legit are slim to none... They made zillions of '69 Ca-mullets, and changing a fuel line, springs, adding a clutch pedal, some emblems, etc... (all parts that are readily available repro) to a plain-jane V8 car is just too easy, especially if it's a LOS built car. Chevrolet cars in particular were not built new to be collectable 35 years later (engines/transmissions not in the VIN).

Anyway, good luck. I'm not saying it can't be done, and if you pull it off, who knows-- Maybe you'll strike it big. It's going to be a tough one, though.

Oh, I almost forgot-- Can I send this bill for consultation to your attention? Ha ha... Just kidding.

Good luck!

69LM1 · #9 08-09-2006, 02:49 AM

"3. You already identified perhaps your biggest problem-- Establishing jurisdiction, and handling by-state lawsuits. A logistical nightmare to say the least, especially when people/titles/registrations move often, etc... Yikes."

Could'nt it be handled by grouping firms like meritas does now?

ZL1#17 · #10 08-09-2006, 04:25 AM

WOW, what a great thread. HATS OFF TO BRIAN! Did I say that loud enough? In response to King Midas, and by the way I do agree, fraud is far too common.
King Midas you state:
1) “Expert status is difficult to establish” huh? I know that if I want a Z/28, COPO, or ZL-1 certified all I have to do is call Jerry MacNeish. He is nationally licensed and certified.
2) Dealers can’t hide. I know for a fact, a dealer can loose their license and go to jail if they commit fraud. Most dealers will try to make it right before the case even goes to trial. I have read many instances (including this board) were the dealer took the car back because they knew that they falsely misrepresented the car.
3) Who cares how many times a car changes hands? It’s the seller who represents the car who is solely responsible for delivering that car for what they said it was. I believe the politically correct term is taking responsibility for your actions.
If I buy a Ferrari 250 GTO or some other kind of exotic and I decide to replace the engine or whatever on the car and then decide to sell it as “all original” it is me the seller who is responsible for that sale, not the previous owners. Now, let’s say I bought the Ferrari with out an original part and it was sold to me as “all original”. That does not give me the right to re-sell it as “all original”, or an excuse such as “that’s how I bought it”. AGAIN I APPLAUD BRYAN W. SHOOK, and wish him the best with his new career.