Car for Sale Misrepresentation

[caj]

Hi all, I'm new here. My name is Craig and I live in St George Utah. I purchased a Yellow 1970 Dodge Challenger R/T SE from Danny (XXXBlackLs6M22) that was listed for sale here as well as a few other sites. I'm sure that some of you here will remember his post. I and others feel that he has deleted all of his posts because of his misrepresentation of the car. I was hoping it wouldn't come to this but here is an update of the purchase. I want to apologize for the length but I didn't want to leave anything out.

Some of you here might remember Danny selling his 70 Challenger maybe here, cuda-challenger, or another site or you may have seen it for sale on Ebay . The car was supposed to be "perfect". I live in the US and do not have a passport so I could not inspect the Challenger. Per Danny's description, the car was again supposed to be in perfect condition with nothing needed for the car at all except for a problem with the drivers seat bottom (which he told me about in private) not being supported very well because of it's age. Danny said that he puts a pillow between the seat bottom and the floor to support the seat bottom. I asked Danny (before I purchased it) if there was anything else wrong with the car? He emphatically said there was nothing else wrong except for a chip in the drivers door paint (which he himself caused when opening the door). I specifically asked Danny about the engine and how it ran and any unusual noises, the carb and it choking properly, the transmission and clutch, the interior and all working gauges, lights, wipers, any leaks on the ground, etc....everything and anything that I could think of. He told me that the car needs absolutely no additional work done to it at all other than what he already told me about with the seat and door. Over the course of a week or two of phone conversations with Danny, we seemed to have become friends. We had a lot of things in common and I felt comfortable with what he had told me about the car being true and since I also thought he was honest, I decided to purchase the Challenger. Turns out, I was absolutely wrong. I have purchased many cars on the internet. A 73 Mustang with 2,000 original miles, 2 low mileage Corvettes, a 75 Maverick Grabber with 20,000 original miles, and an 86 Monte Carlo SS with 2,000 original miles and every one of the sellers were totally honest with the description of their cars. Everyone was honest except for Danny. I have sold cars on Ebay and have also been totally honest with my descriptions and discussions with perspective buyers on the phone. I never want anyone coming back to me saying "you didn't tell me this or you didn't tell me that". I believe in honesty.....that's how I live my life and I like to treat people fairly and that is the way I like to be treated in return from others. I also have always like to think the best of people.

The following is what is wrong with the Challenger:
1. The car was delivered from TFX and when I got in it to drive it into the garage, the clutch was not smooth acting...and when putting the clutch down to the floor, it almost pops when coming up. I learned how to drive on a stick shift and have driven them for 44 years so I know this is not normal. Something Danny never told me about when I questioned him about the transmission and clutch.
2. The car has a very loud ticking from the passenger side and when giving it a little slight revving, the car misses. My thinking was one of the cylinders has a bad lifter, valve spring, or the cam could possibly be bad. Something Danny never told me about when I questioned him about the engine.
3. After Danny received his full payment, he then tells me (on the phone before the car arrived) that the vinyl insert is separating from the fabric of the driver seat bottom and that he tucks the vinyl into the fabric to hide it at shows. Danny already had the money I sent him so what was I supposed to do now after I paid him? Something Danny never told me about when I questioned him about the interior.
4. The car has a carb choke problem. The choke does not set up properly (making it hard starting) and I am not overly concerned about fixing that as it shouldn't require much work. Something Danny never told me when I questioned him about the carb and the choke.
5. There are numerous leaks underneath car when left parked. I have seen three. I have noticed that one is from the rear drivers shock. The car sits too low to see where the other leaks are coming from, but when I backed the car out...it seemed like one of the other leaks was where the rear main is. But again, something Danny never told me about when I questioned him about leaks under the car.

On the positive, the Challenger is beautiful...I will say that about it. The body, engine compartment, and underneath are pristine. But, now with the engine work that will need to be done, how will the engine compartment and engine look when that's all done? I'm sure this is why Danny didn't do anything to really fix the engine problems because of that very reason...it might screw up the looks of the engine bay.

The engine is my main concern, then the seat, then the clutch, the leaks, and lastly the carb. All I can say is Danny was less than 100% honest with everything and took advantage of me because I wasn't there to see and hear the car myself. He was very deceitful and I'm really trying to be nice here with my choice of words. With Danny telling me about the seat vinyl/fabric separation after he received all of his money and never telling me about the engine, clutch, leaks, or carb at all and letting me find that out on my own. I ask you, what kind of person does this. Does he have any scruples or morals?

After I received the Challenger, I calmly called Danny and asked him about the loud engine tick and the clutch. I didn't want to fully confront him until I had a clear head and also had a mechanic look and listen to the car. He told me that he knew about the engine tick but he was never overly concerned about it. He told me that he and his mechanic took the valve cover off 2 or 3 years ago (Danny has owned the Challenger for 5 years) and the mechanic told him to leave it alone or put spacers (?) on to quiet down the noise of the lifter. Danny also told me that when he drove the Challenger, he would occasionally speed shift it and the engine held up fine so why worry about it? I ask you, why would anyone ever want to speed shift a numbers matching 45 year old show car and take a chance of missing a shift and breaking something and then not having a total numbers matching car anymore? Maybe it's just me but I think that is just wrong. You are all car guys and I'm sure know what I'm saying, I then asked about the clutch and he said that when he first got the Challenger the clutch was terrible...much, much worse than it is now. He spent hours trying to adjust it but this was the best he could get it. I know that the clutch is not right but Danny told me to just leave it alone because it won't get adjusted any better.

Almost 4 weeks ago I was able to bring the Challenger to a recommended mechanic that works at the local Dodge dealership. He also works on race cars with his brother after hours. He listened to the engine, heard the loud tick-tick-tick and came to the same conclusions that I did. He also felt the clutch and feels there is a problem there too and it may be a problem with worn bushings or the pressure plate. He is going to do all of the mechanical work for me at his brothers garage. I don't know him so I just hope he's good and will take care of the car. Good thing is that I can be there with him when he works on it. Although he sounds good, he has not done any work yet and I think he is having second thoughts because of the possibility of messing up that perfect engine compartment. He keeps on pushing the start date off. It's really hard getting any kind of work done in this small town. Danny knew that because that was my main concern about having any problems with a car that I bought.

After talking to the mechanic I called Danny and finally didn't have to hold all this in anymore and had a nice talk with him. I was very calm and cordial. I told Danny that I was very disappointed in him because of his being less than honest with me and that I felt that I was deceived. I told him that I thought we had a developed a friendship and that he had gained my trust. He was very quiet and admitted that he was less than honest and even apologized. I asked him if he would pay for the work and parts for the Challenger and he said no. His reasoning was that I got a good deal on the car and he was not going to pay for anything. I told him that the price I paid was supposed to be for a turn key car in "perfect" condition...which it is not. I then said that I would be willing to cover the first $1,000 of the bill and he still refused. Why would he refuse that offer...especially if I am paying the first $1,000? My thinking is that he knows or thinks that the engine needs more work than just the top end. After talking to him some more he finally reluctantly agreed to cover any charges over $1,000...but his agreeing to paying was totally unbelievable and I felt that he just wanted to get off the phone with me. To be able to continue our friendship I was willing to pay the first $1,000 and I feel that I am being more than fair.....and he balked at that.

All I can say is that if Danny would have told me about the engine noise....I would have walked away and never would have considered buying the car. I told him that too. And...that's just the engine nixing the deal for me. Adding the problems with the seat, the clutch, the carb choke, and the leaks and I would have ran away from it. BTW...The seats are all original and I can't find any NOS materials or NOS seat covers. I'm really stuck. I either keep the original seats with a ripped drivers seat or I replace all of them so they all match.

When I purchased the Challenger, I promised my wife that this would be my last muscle car because this is what I always wanted. This is the most expensive car that I have ever purchased and it should have been a GREAT day and experience for me when it arrived. Well...it wasn't. I think about this all the time now, and am losing a lot of sleep too. I had to finally tell my wife what happened and that wasn't easy either, especially since our friends have always asked (throughout the years) "how can you buy a car on the internet without seeing it? My answer always was that I have lengthy discussions with the sellers, ask the right questions, but mainly that I consider myself a pretty good judge of character. Now, after years and years of being able to trust people at their word...that's changed. Thanks Danny for everything and making me look and feel pretty stupid.

The update to this is that I am getting no where with the mechanic. I think he is afraid of touching the car. Knowing this and now wondering how long it will take to get all of these issues fixed in this small town, I talked to Danny a little more than a week ago and discussed these matters with him. I told him that I would like him to make this right because he was not honest with me. I started to tell him that he can either buy the Challenger back for what I paid for it or he can send me $5,000 for me to put in the bank (in an interest bearing account to be paid to him) to be used towards fixing the Challenger as time goes on. I was going to tell him that any unused money would be returned to him but he hung up the phone on me. I'm asking for money up front now because I don't trust him at all anymore. I'm very honest and I'm not looking to make one dime off of this guy....I just want him to pay for the issues that he flat out lied about. I just feel that he sent me a car that is certainly not as he described. It's the principle of the thing for me. Anyway, he hung up the phone on me. I called twice more and he just hung up the phone. I sent him an email and he never responded. So, I was totally right with my concern about his sincerity about him ever helping with the costs.


He lied and shows no remorse except saying he is sorry. I'm 63 with some medical issues and really didn't need all of this. I'll tell you all that he is not someone that you would ever want to trust or want to buy a car or anything from.

One thing I have learned is that a car should never be purchased on the internet unseen. I did good up till now but have learned a lesson here.

Any ideas or comments? Please PM me.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Craig

[KENNY PASCOE]

Getting to the point on here that a few bad apples misrepresenting cars on here are going to spoil the bunch for the rest of the SYC Members . Hope there is a resolution to this for you . Good Luck ... KP

[JBALL]

Sorry to hear this Craig. I bought a rebodied car from one of the used car dealers here. Please PM me for the details.

I wish you the best.

Jason

[Charley Lillard]

Please no piling on in this thread. Please keep it factual.

[Dave Rifkin]

Sorry to hear about your bad experience but, in my opinion, if you're going to spend that kind of money on your dream car it probably would have been wise to invest a few extra dollars to have someone inspect it for you. Buying something like a collector car site unseen is a recipe for disaster. I hope you can get the car straightened out so you can enjoy it.

[kwhizz]

Was the seller from Nu Yawk!!.........Seriously......I feel your Pain and basically you are in a no win situation.........Put it to bed and move on.......That's about all you can do.....

Ken

[DW31S]

I have no gun in this fight, but considering the amount of money changing hands plane tickets or an independent inspector not only seem cheap, but appropriate. Rarely is any car "perfect" and if it is, chances are it won't sell on a public forum sight unseen; it would be in a private collection and sold privately. I hope this situation can be worked out amicably and I really don't think this is the norm for members of this site.

[COPO CARTEL]

Hopefully the site can be impartial and help BOTH parties fix these problems . It's best for the hobby [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif[/img]

[daleone3]

I have no dog in the fight either but it has become the way of the world. Buying cars interstate or in this case out of Canada is a crap shoot and you really have no recourse under any circumstances without litigating and any attorney will tell you that you have very little chance of recovery after legal fees.
I had a friend bought a Nova out of mid west and got beyond screwed, was nothing like described, front springs chopped, headers dragging as it came off the truck, gauges did not work body was far worse than portrayed. He called an Attorney and was told to chalk it up to experience. It is unfortunate that you cannot trust people and I understand that after developing a rapport you felt that you had &quot;bonded&quot; with the seller however I would offer that was a tactic and not genuine to draw you in.
I also find it interesting that the posts advertising the car are no longer up, leads me to believe further that the plan was to misrepresent the condition of the car as any posting could potentially be used for litigation.
To the earlier point, get an inspection or view the car in person and assume that no matter what, you are dealing with someone that will take advantage of you. Condition is a subjective thing, I say a car is in excellent condition....what is my measure? My opinion, my experience?
This is a shame but I really don't think you have any recourse that would be less expensive than fixing the car the way you want it and moving on.
Best of luck, sorry to hear this happened.

[SS4Real]

I would get it fixed on move on. No car is perfect and even the very good ones need some type of maintenance if they are driven. While the seller may not have been as forthcoming as you are, nothing substitutes for an inspection by you. Sorry to hear it was not as good as you had hoped, but it can be fixed. The issues you describe don't sound all that daunting. There are lots of good restorers out there that can fix your car to your standards. I've had my car for 17 years and it was nearly perfect when I bought mine, yet I still fix or make something better every year.

I would like to hear from the other side. Sounds like a fair compromise is in order.