Market Value and "Numbers Matching" versus "Original Motor"

[PatrickKrook]

Originally Posted by Lynn

For most collectors, a #1 car with a restamp will get discounted significantly to a #1 car with the "born with" engine.

I know it would to me.

I agree with that Lynn. Most popular price guide definitions of "#1" or "#2" do not include factors like drivetrain originality. Additionally, most prices achieved in public and recorded as "#1" are very often NOM or restamps, but simply reported by the auction house as "#1" condition. Those I know with fully documented, concours cars with factory original drivetrains and stamps are seeking a premium OVER #1 Price Guide Figures.

My question is, what is the baseline price for the discount?

[TimG]

There really is no baseline as it depends on the car that is missing the motor. You just can't put a percentage on it. On a '67 327/350 horse Corvette convertible, it could mean as much as $10,000 to $15,000. On the same car with a 427/435 it could be $50,000 to $75,000.

[Formula455SD]

Restamp should take the same hit as a NOM... IMO.. I think 25-35% should be a good baseline depending on the car.

My '66 427/390 car is NOM. It has a '68 427/390 in it with whatever cars vin it came out of stamped on it.... Does restamping add value? Not to me it doesn't. I would rather have NOM than a restamped forgery.

[lowmile]

This is kind of like the bud light spokes person deal. From the beginning of restoring cars numbers matching meant original to the car. Some where along the line someone decide that a correctly restamped block could be a called numbers matching. I would call it a correctly stamped block not numbers matching. I figured I take one more swing at the horse corpse.

[EZ Nova]

Originally Posted by lowmile

This is kind of like the bud light spokes person deal. From the beginning of restoring cars numbers matching meant original to the car. Some where along the line someone decide that a correctly restamped block could be a called numbers matching. I would call it a correctly stamped block not numbers matching. I figured I take one more swing at the horse corpse.

Agreed. Somewhere numbers matching morphed into correct date codes and restamps. Is that not like what Lynn said and the term "BORN-WITH" came into use?

I was speaking to a couple buddies who are also 'cart guys" and have been for years. One is even a friend and travelling buddy of Peter Klutt since BEFORE Legendary when he was The Shelby Shop. Anyway these guy don't follow the "trends" closely and I had to inform them, and show them this thread, that TODAY, numbers matching in NOT "born-with", but actually a different but correct date code and even restamp. They both were taken aback and was shocked that the hobby has moved like that.

[rm70z]

What if the car has a CE block from dealer , is there also a hit on vehicle pricing , not being original and how much .

[TimG]

A CE block does not take the place of an original block. Let's say that a '68 427/435 horse Corvette lost its block six months after purchase. By the time the dealer ordered a CE block and got it into the dealership, that block would be a casting date too late for the car and the casting number may be a different number altogether. Very few cars kept their warranty paperwork from the installation of a CE block, either. A CE block would have a casting date too late for the car and a casting number most likely different that the original block that was installed in the car. I think the best thing you can do if your car is missing the original motor is to try to find a block from another car close in VIN to your car and put that motor in the car.

[67since67]

My take on this may well not align with others thoughts here.

A CE block installed as a warranty replacement when the car was near new, in an otherwise real, legit, documented car, would be ok, but with an appropriate price adjustment. My feeling is that it's part of the legitimate history of the car. In the dealership where I was employed in the late '60's forward it was daily routine for a warranty engine replacement in some Chevy. I have a CE block in my garage.

A Yenko, COPO, Corvette, or other ultra rare muscle car with the original block unavailable, a real engine from a similar car is OK, but I'd really have to want it.

A "stamper" engine will never cross my threshold, under any circumstances!

I have walked away from otherwise great cars (ie '67 Chevelle L78) due to the last two scenario's.

Just my thoughts. - Bill W

[carnut4life]

Originally Posted by 67since67

My take on this may well not align with others thoughts here.

A CE block installed as a warranty replacement when the car was near new, in an otherwise real, legit, documented car, would be ok, but with an appropriate price adjustment. My feeling is that it's part of the legitimate history of the car. In the dealership where I was employed in the late '60's forward it was daily routine for a warranty engine replacement in some Chevy. I have a CE block in my garage.

A Yenko, COPO, Corvette, or other ultra rare muscle car with the original block unavailable, a real engine from a similar car is OK, but I'd really have to want it.

A "stamper" engine will never cross my threshold, under any circumstances!

I have walked away from otherwise great cars (ie '67 Chevelle L78) due to the last two scenario's.

Just my thoughts. - Bill W

If a car doesn't have the original engine I'd rather have a CE block in it than a dated block with the wrong VIN too Bill. I know a dated block will get you more points at certain shows but I don't show my cars so that's not an issue for me.

I wasn't around back then but I've talked to a lot of guys that were and every single one of them has told me the same thing, if given the option back in the day to have the original engine rebuilt by the dealer under warranty, or to have a new engine installed, every single one of them picked the new engine over having their original engine repaired back then because nobody was worried about originality or numbers matching. That doesn't get talked about much these days, but it's one of the biggest reasons I'd rather have a CE block over a dated block if the original is MIA.

[Flying Undertaker]

My ZL-1 Camaro was stolen along with four other ZL-1 Camaros from Merollis Chevrolet back in July 1969. My engine complete, the 4 speed M-21 trans. tires and wheels, The original bucket seats, Bent neck, BBC radiator, clutch Z-bar. My ZL-1 is the only surviving ZL-1 out of Five stolen. My cars original ZL-1 was used to run on Woodward or a flat bottom speed boat. The engine and trans. were never recovered, according to ZL-1 gurus. I have a CE block in it today, along with a CT trans.