Unsuspecting buyers with repro documents

[MosportGreen66]

Originally Posted by rsinor

I've often thought there is a simple way to slow all of this down,

1 GM could require a licensing fee for use of their logos.

2 The producer of the document could include a statement that said reproduction not intended to be used as authentic documentation, or something similar.

Roy, I agree. Doesn't mean you get a home-grown-hero attempting to make these docs on Photoshop but it is a good start.

Paul posted above he puts a water mark on his documents. I'd love to see what this water mark is.

Paul - can you please post a photo for us to see?

Dan

[rsinor]

In my world a watermark might be a nice touch, but it does nothing to protect the hobby, believe it or not the hobby is what this discussion is about. Without self preservation it goes away when fraud is discovered.

If an individual spends his major disposable cash on a fraudulent car, he can be so devastated he is out of the hobby forever.

Just as an example I know where there is a lawsuit waiting to happen over the blatant misrepresentation of a 1.3M dollar car. Collector car fraud is pursuable for 7 years from discovery. That means it is forever, if the current owner does not discover it and he transfers it after fifteen years. the new owner has seven years from when he discovers it. When these cases get tried they role downhill to someone, that someone is usually the party that forged the document or trim tag, the item that made it fraud to start with. My point is 1.3M is a big number maybe not to the current owner but to most and eventually someone will discover it. It could just as easily be 60,000, or 100,000 both are potentially big numbers to someone starting in the collector car hobby.

[ZLP955]

I know this divides car communities, but personally I really can't see why any reproduction documentation is acceptable, in any circumstances; your car either has (genuine) original docs, or it doesn't.

[Mr70]

Originally Posted by ZLP955

I know this divides car communities, but personally I really can't see why any reproduction documentation is acceptable, in any circumstances; your car either has (genuine) original docs, or it doesn't.

Because they're nice conversation pieces at gatherings like car shows & cruises.They should be used for display purposes only & not to validate a vehicle.I display a repro window sticker on the passenger side of my Chevelles' windshield,and it draws people over to talk.We're all getting older,and todays generation is clueless what these things cost back then.They like to see what was an extra cost option,and what was not.
Also,it's hard to see the specific transmission callout or the ratio of the rear end on a car sitting still,but they can on a window sticker,as well as the Horsepower of the engine in some cases,and the dealership it was sold at too.
Repro docs help to understand the car better,and should always be disclosed as repro.
Like I said earlier,tear them up the day you sell the vehicle so it can't come back to haunt you later.Let the new buyer order a new repop from Paul.Overall it just helps explain the car better & makes it all come together,which in turn draws people together.

[ZLP955]

Originally Posted by Mr70

Because they're nice conversation pieces at gatherings like car shows & cruises.They should be used for display purposes only & not to validate a vehicle.

So for 'conversation' purposes why try to mimic the appearance of a genuine document? You could easily type up a simple one-page sheet of paper that lists out all the options, selling dealer etc, and display that - and NOBODY is ever going to be taken into thinking that's genuine provenance.

[MosportGreen66]

Originally Posted by ZLP955

So for 'conversation' purposes why try to mimic the appearance of a genuine document? You could easily type up a simple one-page sheet of paper that lists out all the options, selling dealer etc, and display that - and NOBODY is ever going to be taken into thinking that's genuine provenance.

Took the words out of my mouth.

Mr.70 - I completely disagree.

Dan

[fsc66]

Deleted thread

[Mr70]

Originally Posted by ZLP955

So for 'conversation' purposes why try to mimic the appearance of a genuine document? You could easily type up a simple one-page sheet of paper that lists out all the options, selling dealer etc, and display that - and NOBODY is ever going to be taken into thinking that's genuine provenance.

Why restore an old car with reproduction parts mirroring the original used by the factory when it was sold brand new?...Because that best resembles how it looked when it was sold brand new.
If they just came with "a simple one-page sheet of paper that lists out all the options,selling dealer etc," then they'd do that today too.

[ZLP955]

Originally Posted by Mr70

Why restore an old car with reproduction parts mirroring the original used by the factory when it was sold brand new?...Because that best resembles how it looked when it was sold brand new.
If they just came with "a simple one-page sheet of paper that lists out all the options,selling dealer etc," then they'd do that today too.

Fake docs are problematic because they appear credible to all but a few experts. Just read threads like this one to see knowledgeable people who have been around these cars much of their life, genuinely asking how to spot the subtleties of a good fake.
Reproduction parts don't offer a sense of immediate credibility, and only hint at what a car may, or may not, be - further diligence and appraisal is still required.

[SS427]

Paul, from what I have seen you offer a very reputable product and do not yourself try to deceive anyone. I think it is usually the next guy down the line we have to worry about, not the original purchaser. It is great that you watermark the documents but as Charley has said, nothing is stopping anyone from copying the document and passing it along as real. As I have said before, I feel the best way to keep people from using your service in a deceptive way is to post all the VIN's as well as the car's information (even if partial but with enough information to know which car for comparisons sake) as well as which documents were made for said vehicle on your own existing site. I inspect dozens of cars each year and waste a lot of my time and the customer's money inspecting a car only to find a reproduction (fake) document. If there was a site available that I could look on before we went any further it would help a lot of people. That being said you have been very helpful and forthright when I have contacted you and asked if a specific document was one of yours.

I understand the privacy issue but go beyond that and believe that if people are trying to keep it quiet there is usually a good reason for that and it is usually not a good one.