Photos of Proteam's Barn Found L88-Restored

[704EVER]

[ QUOTE ]
Pete, the car will not be boxed even if the owner admits its a restamp. A restoration engine is a polite way to say restamp. The judging is based on "appearance" Bloomington/NCRS promotes restoration/preservation. They do not condone counterfeiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very informative to say the least and I know this is probably a redundant question for the NCRS/Bloomington guys. But how can they not condone counterfeiting, yet accept restamps? A restamp is a restamp, no more, no less. In other circles of collector cars the stamp pad is 1 of the "Holy Grails", you either have it or you don't. What am I missing here?

[69 L88]

[ QUOTE ]
Pete, the car will not be boxed even if the owner admits its a restamp. A restoration engine is a polite way to say restamp. The judging is based on "appearance" Bloomington/NCRS promotes restoration/preservation. They do not condone counterfeiting.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with SBR , The NCRS OR Bloomington doesn't condone fake, or fraud of a car, If you take a small block 67 and make a 435 car out of it and try to say that's the way it rolled off the line at GM that's wrong, That is not the same thing as having a 69 ZL1 and have the motor blow up and replace it with another engine,Just look at all the high dollar race cars that have sold in the past , they have had there engine replaced at one time or more,
When you restore a car that is what you do to it , try to put it back as close as possible to the way it rolled off the GM line back when it was new,

[SBR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pete, the car will not be boxed even if the owner admits its a restamp. A restoration engine is a polite way to say restamp. The judging is based on "appearance" Bloomington/NCRS promotes restoration/preservation. They do not condone counterfeiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very informative to say the least and I know this is probably a redundant question for the NCRS/Bloomington guys. But how can they not condone counterfeiting, yet accept restamps? A restamp is a restamp, no more, no less. In other circles of collector cars the stamp pad is 1 of the "Holy Grails", you either have it or you don't. What am I missing here?

[/ QUOTE ] I am with you on the point of the motor being the holy grail, I personally will not buy a car with a restamped motor, thats just my preference. However Tom makes a great point in that there are many great cars/race cars etc. that have had their motors replaced and are restored to factory spec and rightfully so. The problem lies that there is nothing on a Bloomington Gold award or an NCRS Top Flight award that separates a real motor from a restamp and that is what needs to be addressed in my humble opinion. Like Chris said earlier the top collectors know the difference and pay up for it but thanks in large part to the media/auction hype BS and not taking the time to educate themselves a buyer does not have all the information to make an informed purchase.

[704EVER]

So, if I'm understanding this correctly. It's Ok with NCRS/Bloomington Judges to validate and certify a restamped date correct motor, ONLY if the car originally came with that particular HP motor? I also get the ZL1 comparisons, but again, a car is only original once and don't the non-original ZL1's pay the price for that? I'm just trying to understand the difference. Is there a one set of rules for Corvettes and different set for other cars?

[66 L78 ragtop]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pete, the car will not be boxed even if the owner admits its a restamp. A restoration engine is a polite way to say restamp. The judging is based on "appearance" Bloomington/NCRS promotes restoration/preservation. They do not condone counterfeiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very informative to say the least and I know this is probably a redundant question for the NCRS/Bloomington guys. But how can they not condone counterfeiting, yet accept restamps? A restamp is a restamp, no more, no less. In other circles of collector cars the stamp pad is 1 of the "Holy Grails", you either have it or you don't. What am I missing here?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a very fine line between a restamp and counterfeiting. That line is crossed when an owner passes the re-stamp off as original and the unsuspecting buyer purchases a car that he didn't bargain for. ie the buyer purchases a clone as opposed to a real deal car.

A car's original motor is usually important as it declares a car's pedigree...In this case and in the case of yenko's etc, the original motor is not necessary to declare a cars pedigree. The pedigree is established by the car's VIN.

[704EVER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pete, the car will not be boxed even if the owner admits its a restamp. A restoration engine is a polite way to say restamp. The judging is based on "appearance" Bloomington/NCRS promotes restoration/preservation. They do not condone counterfeiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very informative to say the least and I know this is probably a redundant question for the NCRS/Bloomington guys. But how can they not condone counterfeiting, yet accept restamps? A restamp is a restamp, no more, no less. In other circles of collector cars the stamp pad is 1 of the "Holy Grails", you either have it or you don't. What am I missing here?

[/ QUOTE ] I am with you on the point of the motor being the holy grail, I personally will not buy a car with a restamped motor, thats just my preference. However Tom makes a great point in that there are many great cars/race cars etc. that have had their motors replaced and are restored to factory spec and rightfully so. The problem lies that there is nothing on a Bloomington Gold award or an NCRS Top Flight award that separates a real motor from a restamp and that is what needs to be addressed in my humble opinion. Like Chris said earlier the top collectors know the difference and pay up for it but thanks in large part to the media/auction hype BS and not taking the time to educate themselves a buyer does not have all the information to make an informed purchase.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that reply, that absolutely answers a lot of questions I've had since reading this thread. I'm not that informed on what's acceptible in the Corvette community but this is certainly enlightening. I guess doing due dilligence takes on a whole new meaning regarding Corvettes.

[69 L88]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if I'm understanding this correctly. It's Ok with NCRS/Bloomington Judges to validate and certify a restamped date correct motor, ONLY if the car originally came with that particular HP motor? I also get the ZL1 comparisons, but again, a car is only original once and don't the non-original ZL1's pay the price for that? I'm just trying to understand the difference. Is there a one set of rules for Corvettes and different set for other cars?

[/ QUOTE ]
No i don't think so, no difference , Their is more to any and all cars than just the engine alone, that is 1/5 of the sum of the entire puzzle of the car,
And yes a ZL1 Survivor with it's original engine is worth a higher premium ,or any car like it , AS FAR AS THE TWO ZL1 Corvette go I'm not sure if they have their original engines or not, the yellow coupe M22, or the M40 orange conv. / any body know ??

[704EVER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pete, the car will not be boxed even if the owner admits its a restamp. A restoration engine is a polite way to say restamp. The judging is based on "appearance" Bloomington/NCRS promotes restoration/preservation. They do not condone counterfeiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very informative to say the least and I know this is probably a redundant question for the NCRS/Bloomington guys. But how can they not condone counterfeiting, yet accept restamps? A restamp is a restamp, no more, no less. In other circles of collector cars the stamp pad is 1 of the "Holy Grails", you either have it or you don't. What am I missing here?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a very fine line between a restamp and counterfeiting. That line is crossed when an owner passes the re-stamp off as original and the unsuspecting buyer purchases a car that he didn't bargain for. ie the buyer purchases a clone as opposed to a real deal car.

A car's original motor is usually important as it declares a car's pedigree...In this case and in the case of yenko's etc, the original motor is not necessary to declare a cars pedigree. The pedigree is established by the car's VIN.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess the hard part I have accepting here, is the fact that I personnaly believe a restamp is counterfeiting a car to a certain degree in the first place, be it 1/5 or 1/2 of a cars composure. If the original motor is long gone, why go through the trouble and expense of recreating what once was? The only way I can see this practice as being accepted by the community, is that the NCRS/Bloomington guys put an award on these cars and then they become accepted as the real deal. As I'm seeing this, unless you happen to be an insider and know the real truth about a particular car, you're pretty much on your own. That's a sad state of affairs and practice to uphold in my opinion. I guess it's common practice but I never realized it. Thanks for all the information guys.

[SBR]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if I'm understanding this correctly. It's Ok with NCRS/Bloomington Judges to validate and certify a restamped date correct motor, ONLY if the car originally came with that particular HP motor? I also get the ZL1 comparisons, but again, a car is only original once and don't the non-original ZL1's pay the price for that? I'm just trying to understand the difference. Is there a one set of rules for Corvettes and different set for other cars?

[/ QUOTE ] You are correct on your first point however I do not believe there are two sets of rules regarding Corvettes. I am not sure how restoration motors are judged with different makes but I can tell you that as far as Corvettes are concerned a no questioned original motored car will always bring more money, sometimes lots more than a restamp. I am not a fan of restamps because as you said things tend to get clouded up when cars change hand, that's why I am for spelling out all the facts regarding a particular car not mudding things up with vague wording such as #s matching etc. The more information thats available the better things will become. I am sure that this is wishful thinking on my part because when money is involved it makes people do things they don't want to do. Quote from Wall Street.
BTW where's the guy who started this whole discussion?

[SBR]

After rereading this thread I just wanted to add that I must say that Terry has been totally forthcoming regarding his L88. He invited all the top guys in the hobby to inspect the car before restoration and was a gracious host. The car is stunning and whoever ends up with it will have a great car in the best color combo JMHO.