F41 Rear Springs with 6 Leaves

[Schonyenko2]

We look forward to seeing you at the Heartland Nova reunion. Will be interesting to get a look at the car.

[Tracker1]

Originally Posted by big gear head

I wouldn't be so quick to say that there is no interest in this car. All though I have not posted any comments, I have been following every post that you have put up, and this is an interesting car to me. I have never seen the 6 leaf springs on anything before and it would be interesting to know how they were built. Please keep posting here so that those of us who are interested can keep up.

I agree, I've been following the thread too. This thing is fascinating.

[9C1Beater]

Yenko Deuce...thanks for the positive input. I'm actually not trying to put my Nova down, just curious why it doesn't attract more interest, and why Kurt is questioning its Z28 heritage (and parts). He is a Camaro and Yenko expert, and yet he doesn't think this car used Z28 parts?!!! When this car was at the Nova Nats this past June, it barely attracted any attention from the Nova bigwigs, but it drove the guys at the Super Car Workshop building crazy...they immediately recognized it for what it was.

I will take some good photos of the springs, get their dimensions, and take closeups of the welds. I didn't even think about the spring brackets welded to the bottoms of the axle, but they are probably deeper than a standard 5-leaf rear due to the extra leaf, so I will take that measurement as well. The leaves are definitely very beefy...there is no give in them whatsoever, which makes this car handle with barely any lean.

The guys at the Tech Center freely borrowed from each other's programs to create cars like the '67 Z28. Vince Piggins didn't go and design entirely new engine parts when he created the first 302...he mated an existing 327 block with a Corvette 283 forged crank, used the biggest valve heads from the Corvette, and controlled the valves with a Duntov 30-30 cam...all from the GM parts bin. Don Yenko figured out a way to use the COPO ordering process to get Novas with LT1s and M22 transmissions, and Fred Gibb used the COPO process to get '69 Camaros built with aluminum ZL1 engines.

This Nova was no different. Harry Hammond and Jim Ingle had only 5 weeks to build the basic Nova police car prototype to meet the LASD's imposed Feb 28, 1974 deadline to have the basic car constructed (Harry and Jim still had 2 months to "dial it in", which they needed!). The man in charge of the Camaro program at the Tech Center was Vince Piggins, and he loaned his newest engineer, Jim Ingle to the police car project (Jim was working in the "F-Body Program" office at that time, and he went on to run the program sometime later). Both Harry and Jim were relatively fresh hires at the Tech Center, and both had mechanical engineering degrees. They already knew that a Nova 4-door with standard front disk brakes, standard F41 suspension, and bias-ply tires on 14x6 inch wheels wasn't going to satisfy the LASD, because Rick Mahoney (along with Motor Trend editor John Christy) had tried to get a '73 Nova 4-door with the aforementioned equipment to pass the LASD's strict, measured standards to no avail (Harry said it wasn't up to par in braking and handling). The '74 prototype project went all-out and GM used every trick it could think of...including the 6-leaf rear springs, a cooling fan from a pickup truck, and many Z28 parts to make the car beat the competition. Harry said the finished car could out-handle and out-brake a Z28. John Christy was the first to say in print that the Nova police car was a "4-door Z28", and Hot Rod magazine did the same when they tested a '76 Nova 9C1, which they titled as "Super Nova!" in one article, and "The 4-door Z28" in another article in 1978.

I welcome any input on here, as I know you guys are far more knowledgeable on Novas and Chevrolets in general than I am. That's why I posted the car on here.

Best regards, Alex

[Kurt S]

I'm not downgrading the car. My point is the evidence shows they basically made a 4-door SS. Discs, bigger wheels, F41, etc. They appear to use items that were available and in the plant. What parts weren't?

Is there a COPO number on the buildsheet?

[9C1Beater]

Kurt, the build sheet says "COPO OPTIONS", and Harry Hammond told me it was built with Z28 parts. I have put a GM document on here which shows that GM engineers were discussing putting Z28 parts on it. The COPO Nova (both 3rd and 4th Gen versions) has been written about in books, magazines, and is well-known as having been produced with Z28 parts. I have shot you down twice with GM documents that are impossible to refute, so I figure you are either a complete doubter of any hard evidence, or you have some form of Alzheimer's. The first attempt at a Nova police car in 1973 was basically a 4-door SS, and it didn't pass the LASD's braking and handling tests, so there goes that idea. What do you think Harry and Jim were doing at the Tech Center on the 2nd car...building yet another 4-door SS? That was when they started with a bare shell and built it from the ground up with Z28, Chevelle, truck, and full-size Chevy parts (and had someone there weld up some really trick 6-leaf rear springs). Have you ever seen another 3rd Gen Nova with a Z28 dual snorkel air cleaner (that is because it is a COPO car...it borrows parts from other GM cars to make a better version of itself). What do you think Harry and Jim were doing at the GM Proving Ground in Milford for 2 months...having a looonnnggg coffee break? This is not only a COPO car, it is also a BRASS HAT car...both verified with GM documents...ordered, built, and delivered in TWO WEEKS...and yet it's really nothing special, just a 4-door SS. Since a COPO 427 Camaro is basically just a Z28 with a 427 and a curved neck radiator added, does that mean it's nothing special?...remember, those were just parts laying around the factory (to use your words).

You might be celebrated as some sort of genius over on CRG, but you come across here as a complete fool. Please go away and bother someone else with your nonsensical and illogical drivel.

PS...this is just a guess, but I don't think SIX LEAF REAR SPRINGS were available in the plant...touché!

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Originally Posted by 9C1Beater

Kurt,

....You might be celebrated as some sort of genius over on CRG, but you come across here as a complete fool. Please go away and bother someone else with your nonsensical and illogical drivel.

PS...this is just a guess, but I don't think SIX LEAF REAR SPRINGS were available in the plant...touché!

See, now this is where your complex appears to kick in - Kurt questioned the Z28 terminology usage, nothing more / nothing less. This is a hard core, technical enthusiast site, we 'trust but verify' - it's not personal, its just technical.

Most of us (Nova guys) have seen our share of Nova Police cars over the decades, and to be honest - we expect to see these items installed at the factory and we aren't really that surprised. Perhaps an item or two is new to us, but overall that's how they built them!

Your car is cool, sorry it didn't set the Nova Nationals on fire last year - but that's the beauty of a sleeper. You're gonna have to deal with that reality and likely reset your expectations.

[9C1Beater]

Marlin, point taken. But when there are reams of data, plus GM documents, plus verbal stories from the guy who designed the car, plus all sorts of tests conducted at that time, plus actual Z28 parts put on Nova police cars that don't exist on other Novas, then you have to logically assume that this Nova police car contains some Z28 parts. I never said that it was a 100% Z28 4-door, and that's not what the data suggests. The data points out that the 4-door Nova's main weaknesses in handling and braking were addressed with mostly Z28 parts, which makes sense because they were the heaviest-duty parts that GM had that would fit the Nova (other than the rear brakes, which were borrowed from the A-body station wagon).

This car is not "just a 4-door Nova SS", and I think Kurt knows that, but to get him to acknowledge that and stop pushing my buttons apparently isn't going to happen. He didn't apologize or admit he was wrong when he said that "thousands of GM cars came with 14x7 inch steel wheels in the '70s", and that the 14x7 inch plain steel wheels on this car were apparently nothing special. I posted a GM document on here from Jan. '73 from Harry Hammond to Rick Mahoney discussing how to get Rick's first attempted Nova police car to handle better by using 14x6 inch steel wheels borrowed from a Chevelle station wagon, and to use rear spring eye bushings from a Z28 to control axle wheel hop. The letter was also sent to 5 other men at the Tech Center including Jim Ingle and Dave McClellan. Was there any acknowledgement of the letter from Kurt?...no, nothing...crickets. The letter proves that UP TO THAT POINT, they had not yet considered putting 14x7 inch wheels on the 4-door Nova to improve its handling, and also shows that they were starting to put Z28 parts on the car. And the 6-leaf rear springs appear to be hand-built by someone at GM...I haven't found any other springs that look like them (they are basically truck springs...they point to an extreme effort by GM to win the 1974 LASD police car tests), and they further point to this car as being essentially a factory prototype.

I am not out to belittle anybody or stir anything up, but I am a retired US Navy veteran and I don't just sit idly by when my car is being unnecessarily challenged. Kurt knows this car is something special, so to continue to ask odd questions about its provenance and parts does no one on here (especially me) any good. It is like he doesn't bother to actually read and carefully examine the documentation I have posted on here, which makes literally no sense as he is apparently so heavily into research (Kurt...research what I have sent you).

Kindest regards to ALL on here, Alex

PS...now I will calm down. Marlin...thanks.

[Kurt S]

Wow.
Asking questions about a special car somehow belittles it?
That's factual questioning and research versus hyperbole.

Realize that claims are made about cars all the time - and they show up in the magazines all the time. There's 69 Yenko development cars and other such nonsense. To properly evaluate cars, the factual evidence is examined - that's part of the research.
You are making claims that are unsubstantiated, like use of 69 COPO wheels and Z28 components when they actually used Nova SS wheels and RPO F41. Show what is different - which means you'll have to know what F41 actually consisted of, etc.
Development is one thing. What they actually ordered on a car is another. They are two different entities. Connect them and you have a better (and more credible) story.

[novadude]

I can post more stuff on here, but it doesn't seem like there is very much interest in it.

I'm very interested. Please keep the posts coming.

[Canuck]

Alex

Thanks for the contributions, There are a lot of people that read this site that dont post. This is an amazing car. Somewhere on SNS there is a photo of a a nova frame that says COPO 9C1 stenciled on it. Nova 9C1 cars were COPO. For Alex prototype it makes sence that the engineers used readily available parts, thats what GM did when they built prototypes. The best available parts were from the Z28 parts bin.

Ales,keep on posting, there are a lot of interested people here. The research you put into this is unequaled.

Paul
1978 COPO Nova 9C1