Senator Kerry is a saint

[HEMIBEE]

I respect your opinion also Bill, I dont want to bore these guys with political talk, I do think they should try takeing a poll at a mud bog instead of a coffee shop one time just to show there are supporters of our presedent,All of the neg. press is a great victory for the dems and osama. its nam all over again, jane fonda is even back on the news,we know she got 1000s of our people killed last time she ran her mouth. SAD very sad,Osama said we are week, its starting to look like alot of us are.

[427TJ]

[ QUOTE ]
I respect your opinion also Bill, I dont want to bore these guys with political talk, I do think they should try takeing a poll at a mud bog instead of a coffee shop one time just to show there are supporters of our presedent,All of the neg. press is a great victory for the dems and osama. its nam all over again, jane fonda is even back on the news,we know she got 1000s of our people killed last time she ran her mouth. SAD very sad,Osama said we are week, its starting to look like alot of us are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was 100% in support of bombing the s*it out of al Queda and the Taliban in Afghanistan and it made me proud to be an American when the news showed the B-52 contrails circling high over Afghanistan. I supported President Bush in that mission.

Negative press shows the world that we Americans have the guts (and the maturity as a nation) to criticize each other and our government, something that is NOT allowed in Muslim countries. Whether it's Fox News supporting the president unconditionally or CNN etc. harshly criticizing the president, that's something that religious fanatics such as OBN want to stop. "They hate us for our freedom" doesn't explain the whole problem with Muslim terrorists but it does explain it to some degree. One thing's for sure, the Bubbas at the mud bog and the yuppies at the coffee shops were unified as one on 9/11 and it was squandered.

Bin Laden may have thought we were weak until we chased his ass up into the caves of Tora Bora. Our soldiers captured an al Queda radio and heard bin Laden apologizing to his brothers for bringing down such a horrible death (by B-52) upon them--yes, we were that close--and then, suddenly, we stopped. I don't care who you are or where you stand on the issues, at the moment we had him we just let bin Laden go. (And now the Taliban are coming back.)

Jane Fonda was an idiot 40 years ago, acting out some flaw in her upbringing, and she hasn't outgrown her need to be paid attention to. I remember seeing Jane Fonda urinal stickers when I was first in the Air Force (they were still around in the late '80s) and they were hilarious. My college ROTC commander in 1985-87, Colonel Jerry Driscoll, himself a POW in Hanoi for 8 years, had not one word to say about Jane Fonda and I think it's best that way.

One thing to keep in mind is that no matter when we leave Iraq, it will dissolve into a bloodbath of revenge killings. It's basically there now but when we leave for good it will be one huge orgy of killing each other until they're completely exhausted. Same thing hapened when we left Vietnam. Remember the Khmer Rouge of Cambodia? Ever see the photos of the thousands of human skulls piled up in bamboo huts? Once we pulled out they went wild and killed each other by the thousands. Same thing's gonna happen in Iraq, whether it's next year or in 50 years.

Gerald Ford basically cut and ran from Vietnam and look how good that country is doing today? Hell, there REALLY IS a Hilton in Hanoi today! Here's the address: Hilton Hanoi Opera hotel, 1 Le Thanh Tong Street, Hanoi, Vietnam 0, Tel: 84-4-9330500 Fax: 84-4-9330530

Incredible.

[Salvatore]

My son spent over 13 months in Iraq along with thousands of other soldiers. My wife and I have had enough. This war will never end. Sam

[Xplantdad]

[ QUOTE ]
My son spent over 13 months in Iraq along with thousands of other soldiers. My wife and I have had enough. This war will never end. Sam

[/ QUOTE ]

And how many more will be lost?

[nuch_ss396]

Andy,

You keep telling yourself that! Can you say hello madam
President? Hillary will divide the country in half in this
election. She could squeak it out if they use TV and the
media ( they're so good at that ).

Here's my prediction for '08. Obama goes long and hard in
the primaries. He steals Clinton's minority vote and eats
away at her numbers. All of a sudden ( let's say 40 days
before the election ), Obama either gets sick, gets killed,
or passes the torch to Clinton. She ends up with all the
minority votes, the women votes, etc.. It's a scarry scenario.


So, you have to ask yourself on thing. Is she that
conniving? Will it be just luck that it goes that way,
or planned out? If they play the country and it works -
it's over dudes....

That list scared me. Looks like the list of people involved
in any way with the Kennedy Assassination that died mysterious
deaths. The Clinton's are real bad people.

I just wish she'd go away. Fat chance of that. Power hungry!

[Donutblue]

Looks like you have your outline in order - start writing that book.

[Kim_Howie]

Bill, This what happen Ford was not the problem.

Dispirited conservatives and Republicans rightfully appalled at the Cunningham, Abramoff, and Foley scandals should remember history as they contemplate not voting in the 2006 elections because of disillusionment.

In early 1973, the Dow approached new highs in a booming economy. In the 1972 election, the new left was rejected in almost every state. The Paris Peace Treaty was concluded with North Vietnam memorializing its pledge not to interfere militarily in the affairs of South Vietnam. The nation was prosperous and at peace.

Worst President

Within a short time, the mainstream media were able to dismember and destroy the Nixon Administration, using as their sword the Watergate affair. In the congressional elections of 1974, Republican candidates were pounded, losing 48 House seats and five Senate seats.

Until the 1990s, the so-called “Watergate Babies” (i.e. left-wing Democrats) ruled Congress. As its first act after the 1974 election, the new Congress cut off all aid to South Vietnam. Within a short period of time, this led to Communist conquest of all of Indochina, the massacre of at least 4 million of our friends in the killing fields of Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam, and the displacement of millions of “boat people.”

In 1976, the left wing captured the White House with the worst President of modern times—Jimmy Carter. By 1979, the U.S. economy was in shambles with 12% inflation, 11% unemployment, and vast deficits. Our military was reduced to a shadow. With even our embassy officials held hostage in Tehran, the United States became a powerless joke to the world. It may be fairly said that but for Ronald Reagan the days of our democracy might well have been numbered by the consequences of the 1974 election.

It is not clear why the voters of 1974 thought it wise or just to indirectly cause the destruction of millions of allies in Southeast Asia because of the cover-up of a minor burglary at the Watergate. They certainly did not know that by their votes they would punish themselves severely, leaving, by the end of the Carter years, a U.S. economy that was a burned-out hulk and a nation that was humiliated.

I wonder whether history will repeat itself this year. Despite mainstream media distortion, the economy is in its strongest condition since the Reagan years with low unemployment and inflation rates and diminishing fiscal deficits. We have recovered from the implosion of the Clinton Internet bubble and the shock of Sept. 11, 2001. We have crippled al Qaeda, assembled an international coalition to deal with North Korea and made reasonable progress in defeating at least the foreign insurgency in Iraq. We have seen no terrorist attack on our heartland in more than five years.

Despite the second-guessing by Democrats who have no military experience and by a few veterans who question the Iraq policy, an overwhelming majority of active-duty personnel support the Bush policies and the Republican administration. For example, in 2004, an Army Times poll of active-duty military personnel showed less than 15% voting for Kerry and more than 80% voting for Bush. Despite the token military veterans trotted out by the Democratic Party as Trojan horses in Republican areas, it is clear that a large majority of veterans and active-duty personnel reject the “cut-and-run” policies of the fringe element now in control of the Democratic Party.

In the spring of 1975, I watched in horror our refusal to aid our South Vietnamese friends and their collapse. I watched our friends die by the millions in the gulags of Cambodia and Laos and in frenzied attempts to escape on the high seas, and I remembered my friends, who died in Vietnam, and whose sacrifice was so casually discarded by the “Watergate Babies.” I lost faith in the United States for many years.

I wonder now if we are so blind and ignorant of history to actually allow a new crop of “Watergate Babies” to install clearly unfit leaders such as Nancy Pelosi (D.-Calif.), John Conyers (D.-Mich.), and impeached Alcee Hastings (D.-Fla.) as the guiding force in our nation. Considering that a Democratic win could mean the rise of John Murtha (D.-Pa.) from Abscam to majority leader, and Hastings from impeached federal judge to House Intelligence chairman, it is no exaggeration to say both parties have bad actors. The distinction is that the Democrats promote them and the Republicans fire them.

Finally, I wonder if voters (like those in 1974) are going to actually vote for the betrayal of our Iraqi and Afghan allies and the sacrifices of our troops. I wonder if our Iraq War veterans will watch the mass execution or flight of those who fought with them and believed in us. If so, history teaches us that in the end we will suffer terribly ourselves. This is particularly true here, where we face adversaries who have said they will not stop at the waters’ edge but have already reached across the ocean to destroy our nation’s largest buildings and thousands of our people.

-----------
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[427TJ]

Italics by 427TJ.

[ QUOTE ]
Bill, This what happen Ford was not the problem.

Dispirited conservatives and Republicans rightfully appalled at the Cunningham, Abramoff, and Foley scandals should remember history as they contemplate not voting in the 2006 elections because of disillusionment.

Rest assured, Republicans will vote. It's Liberals who tend to stay home and thus "lose on principle." There's a kind of nobility in victimhood. Keep in mind too that Liberals hate Hillary for her vote to authorize the war.

In early 1973, the Dow approached new highs in a booming economy. In the 1972 election, the new left was rejected in almost every state.

McGovern, a WWII B-24 combat pilot, just didn't know how to wield the bloody hatchet required of a winning American presidential politician.

The Paris Peace Treaty was concluded with North Vietnam memorializing its pledge not to interfere militarily in the affairs of South Vietnam.

Yes, the secretly-negotiated (so as not to anger the Rebublican base) peace with North Vietnam. Kissinger made a deal that gave the Communists the entire country of Vietnam as long as they would let us retreat, achieving "peace with honor."

The nation was prosperous and at peace.

And OPEC initiated the 1973 oil embargo, driving up prices and driving down availability.

Within a short time, the mainstream media were able to dismember and destroy the Nixon Administration, using as their sword the Watergate affair.

No, Nixon did that to himself. Bob Woodward, Republican-raised himself, merely exposed the Watergate break-in as an event that was initiated from within Nixon's oval office. When the tapes finally showed that Nixon authorized the break-in, he resigned.

In the congressional elections of 1974, Republican candidates were pounded, losing 48 House seats and five Senate seats.

Thanks to the incredible stench of Nixon's demise.

Until the 1990s, the so-called “Watergate Babies” (i.e. left-wing Democrats) ruled Congress.

They'd ruled congress long before Nixon authorized the Watergate break-in. By the way, politicians always sway with the political winds of the voting public. If the public wants war then the politicians will vote for war. If politicians think the public has had enough of lying politicians then they themselves can turn on their own party, the way Chuck Hagel has been coming out against the Bush "surge" plan. Polls may be just so much BS but all politicians watch the polls closely.


As its first act after the 1974 election, the new Congress cut off all aid to South Vietnam.

Can you say "money down a rathole?" How about, "don't throw good money after bad." Sounds like a solid fiscally-conservative notion.

Within a short period of time, this led to Communist conquest of all of Indochina, the massacre of at least 4 million of our friends in the killing fields of Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam, and the displacement of millions of “boat people.”

Just think, if Nixon hadn't gotten himself caught-up in the Watergate scandal, a scandal of his own doing, he might have been able to focus fully on the problem of the Vietnam war. Ford, knowing that the country was worn-out from the stench of Watergate, finished the withdrawl from Vietnam begun by Nixon. The congress might have cut-off funds but neither Nixon, nor Ford, did much, if anything, to reverse the witholding of funds.

In 1976, the left wing captured the White House

No, the Democratic candidate won the 1976 election.


with the worst President of modern times—Jimmy Carter.

Probably the most Christian too.

By 1979, the U.S. economy was in shambles with 12% inflation, 11% unemployment, and vast deficits.

The bill for the spending on the Vietnam war was coming due. Both parties contributed to this effect. Carter just didn't know how to deal with it--I'll give you that.

Oh, and the federal deficit became MUCH larger under President Reagan. Bigger still under G.W. Bush.

Our military was reduced to a shadow.

Just as it was after WWII.

With even our embassy officials held hostage in Tehran, the United States became a powerless joke to the world.

Well, we let our guy, the Shah of Iran, get himself kicked-out of power. America was worn-out by the Vietnam war and reluctant to rush headlong into a war to keep the Shah in power. Oil wasn't as big a problem as it is today so we let the Shah's regime fall. Trust me, Republicans would have cried bloody murder had Carter decided to launch a war to keep the Shah in power.

It may be fairly said that but for Ronald Reagan the days of our democracy might well have been numbered by the consequences of the 1974 election. It is not clear why the voters of 1974 thought it wise or just to indirectly cause the destruction of millions of allies in Southeast Asia because of the cover-up of a minor burglary at the Watergate.

Americans had seen the writing on the wall with the Vietnam war long before Nixon green-lighted the Watergate break-in. Yes, it was LBJ who led us down a path to failure in Vietnam but Nixon stayed on that path, for the most part, until he resigned in 1974. Ford finally turned off the lights in 1975.

They certainly did not know that by their votes they would punish themselves severely, leaving, by the end of the Carter years, a U.S. economy that was a burned-out hulk and a nation that was humiliated.

Both parties and nearly the entire country were worn-out by Vietnam and then Watergate. The delayed immense fiscal impact of Vietnam war expenditures didn't help and ol'Jimma, who got to be the one to take it on the chin and he didn't know how to deal with it. He was defeated in 1980 because of that. America's national "malaise" of the late 1970s stemmed from the previous 10 years of failure of both party's leaders: LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter.

I wonder whether history will repeat itself this year.

History almost always repeats itself. It's called "politics."

Despite mainstream media distortion

Including Fox News and talk radio. Distortion is big business, after all, and very profitable. Ask Josef Goebbels!

the economy is in its strongest condition since the Reagan years with low unemployment and inflation rates and diminishing fiscal deficits.

And pay cuts for many Americans. (I took a 33% cut in 2005.) The Minimum Wage was just raised by Democrats but the Senate Republicans attached still more tax cuts to the bill. I'd rather have tax and spend instead of slash taxes and spend out of control. Does anyone manage their personal finances that way?

We have recovered from the implosion of the Clinton Internet bubble

Well, Wall Street saw that a tax-slasher and deficit-spender might win the White House so they pulled their money out of the stock market to wait and see who won in 2000. When the tax-slasher/deficit-spender (biggest in history) was awarded the presidency, Wall Street re-invested in other things or just kept their money out of stocks. Smart money comes out of stocks when there's a possible change in fiscal policy, as we saw in 2000-01.

and the shock of Sept. 11, 2001.

If only Bush and Condi had paid attention to people like Richard Clarke and the "bin Laden determined to strike within the United States" CIA briefeing memo. Sometimes I wonder if the Bushies wanted an attack so they could govern the country from a wartime footing. It's much easier to govern when people are scared.

We have crippled al Qaeda

For a short time in 2002. Then we went into Iraq and allowed al Queda and the Taliban to re-generate and get back into the fight.

assembled an international coalition

Sounds good--is Poland on board this time too?

to deal finally! with North Korea and made reasonable progress in defeating at least the foreign insurgency in Iraq.

They'll back-off and let the sectarian violence wear us down for a while, then come back and fight us again when they think the time is right. (Just as the Viet Cong did for 30 years against the French and then us.) They are definitely in this for the long haul, as bin Laden said.

We have seen no terrorist attack on our heartland in more than five years.

We woke up on 9/11. Now that we know how those bastards will come at us we are all much more vigilant. We've been damn lucky too. When the TSA makes me drop my pants at the check point (I am an airline pilot) I know it's because we are at war now and I must do my part. I am now a "boxer" man as my old briefs revealed too much in public.

Despite the second-guessing by Democrats who have no military experience

Aside from the now-fired Don Rumsfeld, who else in the Bush White House has served in the military or seen real combat? We know Bush ducked into the Texas ANG so as to stay out of the meat-grinder in Vietnam (who can blame him?) but it's clearly the "Chicken-hawks" who have gotten us mired in the Middle East. Any Democrat who voted to authorize the war will probably pay a political price. Remember, the liberals are mad at Hillary for her pro-war vote and may stay home if she's the nominee in '08.

and by a few veterans who question the Iraq policy

-As is their patriotic right as Americans under the Constitution of the United States.

an overwhelming majority of active-duty personnel support the Bush policies and the Republican administration.

Maybe senior officers who aren't in harm's way make up an overwhelming majority. The grunts in the sand, off the record so as to avoid persecution by their superiors who want to stay on the good side of the politicians who promote them, probably "overwhelmingly" want to come home alive and never see that goddam sand pit ever again.

For example, in 2004, an Army Times poll of active-duty military personnel showed less than 15% voting for Kerry

Kerry did everything he could to lose the 2004 election. It's no wonder he polled poorly with soldiers.

and more than 80% voting for Bush.

"You never change horses in mid-stream." Not even if the horse is drowning.

Despite the token military veterans trotted out by the Democratic Party as Trojan horses in Republican areas, it is clear that a large majority of veterans and active-duty personnel reject the “cut-and-run” policies of the fringe element now in control of the Democratic Party.

Rest assured that the fringe doesn't actually control the party. "Cut and run" is an ingenious political sound bite slogan that was dreamed up by the Karl Rove wing of the RNC. It's a catchy, snappy slogan that busy voters respond to in this sound-bite driven country of ours. The fringe may want to cut and run but there's no way in hell we could cut and run, even if the voters wanted us to.

In the spring of 1975, I watched in horror our refusal to aid our South Vietnamese friends and their collapse.

"Cut and run" causes such horrors and that's why we won't see another cut and run strategy in Iraq.

Oh, and who controlled the White House in '75? Who was the "decider" then?

I watched our friends die by the millions in the gulags of Cambodia and Laos and in frenzied attempts to escape on the high seas

During news breaks on Monday Night Football. Yes, I remember too.

and I remembered my friends, who died in Vietnam, and whose sacrifice was so casually discarded by the “Watergate Babies.”

By "Watergate Babies" and everbody else in America. As a nation we were spent. Worn out. America, not just the politicians, but a "overwhelming" majority of the country wanted to move on and we did. We let our vets slip through cracks put in place by politicians and America charged forward and elected Ronald Reagan. The roaring '80s began and America put the previous 15 years out of its collective mind.

I lost faith in the United States for many years.

Until January 20th, 1981, right? It was morning in America from that day forward. Well, until January 20th, 1993, right? By the way, we shoudln't lose faith so easily. American democracy is a messy and sometimes bloody process. If you don't want to know how sausages are made or how legislation is dranw up, keep your nose out of the kitchen and the capitol.

I wonder now if we are so blind and ignorant of history to actually allow a new crop of “Watergate Babies” to install clearly unfit leaders such as Nancy Pelosi (D.-Calif.), John Conyers (D.-Mich.), and impeached Alcee Hastings (D.-Fla.) as the guiding force in our nation. Considering that a Democratic win could mean the rise of John Murtha (D.-Pa.) from Abscam to majority leader

And McCain from Abscam to president, I assume?

Wait, it's gonna' be Jeb in '08. Nevermind the McCain comment.

and Hastings from impeached federal judge to House Intelligence chairman, it is no exaggeration to say both parties have bad actors.

I agree with that. Stench is often bi-partisan. It's our fault, you know. We vote for them.

The distinction is that the Democrats promote them and the Republicans fire them.

Bull! The only people Bush has fired (until Rummy) were people who dared question him! He's the "CEO President" all right. He had to fire Rummy. Funny how Bush waited until the DAY AFTER the mid-term election to finally do it.

Finally, I wonder if voters (like those in 1974) are going to actually vote for the betrayal of our Iraqi and Afghan allies and the sacrifices of our troops.

If the Iraqis and Afghans don't stand up then American voters will likely tire of American casualties and vote to end the fiasco and bring our kids home.

I wonder if our Iraq War veterans will watch the mass execution or flight of those who fought with them and believed in us.

If the Iraqis and Afghans don't stand up then American voters will likely tire of American casualties and vote to end the fiasco and bring our kids home. Then yes, our kids will watch the slaughter--the slaughter which will occur whenever we declare "victory" and leave Iraq.


If so, history teaches us that in the end we will suffer terribly ourselves. This is particularly true here, where we face adversaries who have said they will not stop at the waters’ edge but have already reached across the ocean to destroy our nation’s largest buildings and thousands of our people.

Remember, we don't learn from history and are thus doomed to repeat it. If you're smart you'll study the investment trends during such periods and invest accordingly. That's what the rich are doing. Either that, or get out and vote. Good luck, and remember, the only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

-----------
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[/ QUOTE ]

[Kim_Howie]

Nice debate, I agree with some and of course disagee with some.

[427TJ]

Back at ya' Kim.